Here's why I'll keep my Prius Prime

I was told absolutely NOT from my invester’s meeting. And your “dispenser” makes it sound simple. Your “dispenser” is a 900 bar compressor with a duty cycle of a whopping 20 cars/day. And oh BTW it’s about 100K with a yearly maintenance agreement of the same amount. The closest building to your storage tanks would have to be 300 yards. It is the WORSE retail capability of any fuel by an order of magnitude and yes that includes CNG. There is 0 long term investment payback at even $15/kg.


iPad ? Pro

 

If you have to deal with traffic, don't get a Bolt since it doesn't have adaptive cruise control. That feature is a lifesaver in my Leaf. It works much better than in my Prime.

 

Economies of Scale.

 

Can't overcome physics.

Filling a high pressure gas fuel tank will always be more difficult and cost more than filling a liquid fuel one. Because of the required pressures, and its properties, that is more true for hydrogen. Heat is the enemy. The filling protocols are designed to keep the gas under 100C; go above it, and explosion becomes a risk. Compressing a gas creates heat, and unlike other gases, hydrogen also creates heat when it expands.

To safely dispense hydrogen into cars at a rate comparable to a gas pump, you need a pressure tank that is filled to a pressure higher than what the cars' tanks take that is chilled down to -40 degrees. The size of the tank, and how quickly it can fill and be chilled are the limits on how many cars it can service. The hydrogen stations being built today might be able to service 30 cars in a day. costs for the components can drop with higher production, but for hydrogen cars to compete as envisioned, you need stations that can handle hundreds to thousands in a day.

For the same cost we can install more chargers, which don't have the safety codes putting such high restrictions on where we install them.

 

I began timing fuel refills after seeing the 10 sometimes 15 minutes timeframe mentioned so often. Our Clarity refuels 300 miles in about :45 secs. while our C-Max Energi takes about :90 secs for nearly 600 miles range. Both "instantly" charge (for free!) during the night. Travel planning and routing are non-starters otherwise.

 

In which you would have lost more money by upgrading, which was incremental at best based on future roadmaps. It would have been better if they (Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes, etc.) used buses, ships and trucks to drive the economies of scale rather than cars. I have to admit Hyundai actually is attacking the retail part by creating 900 bar storage tanks. Even they know how limiting on-site compression is. How practical they are in operation, we may never know.

Hydrogen is the only fuel where the main cost driver is at retail, not the source. There’s a reason you won’t see big names on hydrogen refueling stations. Retail sucks. The big oil companies have been trying to get out of the 2 R’s (retail and refining) for years because there’s no money in it.


Unsupervised!

 

Were you around in the ‘60s? A lot of impossible things were done. Some even involved liquid hydrogen. Never say never.

 

Never say never contradicts it's self.

 

It's supposed to do that. Like when my mom used to tell me, "'Ain't' ain't a word." Then it showed up in the dictionary.

 

I'm keeping my PP because I don't have to fill it with hydrogen.

 

A BMW bi-fuel, gasoline and hydrogen, car used liquid hydrogen. If parked for a week, the hydrogen tank would go from full to empty without starting the engine.

Liquidifying hydrogen takes more energy, thus more cost. In order to not require venting as the hydrogen heats up, the tank needs to withstand higher pressures, and have more insulation. Again, higher cost. Which is why those working on hydrogen cars have settled on high pressure gas.

Now, GM's Electrovan came about in the late '60s. The first FCEV, it needed a tank of pure oxygen in addition to the hydrogen. Being a van was needed for all the equipment needed to run it. Now FCEVs just need air, and can be made into a midsize sedan with the performance of a Camry at 3 times the cost, at best. So improvements can happen,and they can happen for batteries and chargers too.

 

And what components exactly is that hydrocarbon in your fuel tank made of?

 

The answer is in your own question!
I'm just happy that I don't have to look for that hard-to-find special hydrogen fuel station for my PP!

 

I agree that some things can get done in the future that we’ve only dreamed about. The problem is we’re discussing now not in about 25 years. You wouldn’t have found a bigger cheerleader for hydrogen when President Bush signed the Hydrogen Fuel Initiative back in 2003. I thought at the time that we were prepared for the future, particularly because of the poor state of battery technology at the time. Guess I was wrong.


Unsupervised!

 

How about methane fuel cells? Finally, a robust fuel cell that runs on methane at practical temperatures -- ScienceDaily

I wonder if that would be more efficient than just making CNG cars?

 

With really rough calculations, a CNG Camry hybrid will go about as far on the same amount of gas as a Mirai using NG sourced hydrogen. This fuel cell probably won't do much better. With improvements, the fuel cell might make a better range extender than an ICE running as a series hybrid though.

 

What Musk has to say :

Musk calls hydrogen fuel cells 'stupid,' but tech may threaten Tesla

Elon Musk: Hydrogen Fuel Cells Are "Extremely Silly." Are They Really?

 

Unless you want to cut down on fossil. Hydrogen could be nearly totally renewable.
Electricity and Sea Water.
Electric from renewables like wind and solar and Sea Water is currently in good supply.
Certainly better than what battery production does to the environment.

 

People site the lack of chargers as a problem for BEVs. Using hydrogen for fuel means fixing the lack of 'chargers' will cost a whole lot more, without a home refueling option. Infrastructure for supporting Al-air batteries for cars will cost less.

Methane can be made renewably too. Just add CO2 to the electricity and sea water. Once you have renewable methane, you can made renewable diesel, or even renewable gasoline. Audi has already done the renewable methane and diesel.

 

Is there any way to store hydrogen in a more easily contained form? For example dissolve it in water (like a carbonated drink) or put it in something like aerogel?