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Feeling Conflicted with my 2020 Limited....

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by mister2cool, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. Heedunk

    Heedunk Junior Member

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    I am starting to feel the same way. I picked up my 2020 Prime in October and get sad every time EV runs out. I catch myself spec'ing out Model 3 regularly although I street park my car and don't have access to charge at home (which is the main reason I picked Prime over Model 3). My work has chargers that are occupied most times, but in hindsight I could charge a Model 3 fully at least once a week without too much of a hassle.
     
    #21 Heedunk, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  2. GSK

    GSK Active Member

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    funny, I drove a Leaf for about 2 years before buying my Prime Limited. The Leaf is a great car, very comfortable and actually fun to drive, but I constantly had range anxiety. I could essentially drive to work and back before I had to charge. Forget about going too far from that route without stopping to charge. However, my Leaf is a 2015, so only had ~82 miles of range. The newer models, including the Plus, will give you a lot more, and would undoubtedly be a fantastic car to drive. For my needs, I wanted to be able to go much longer distances than any battery only car is capable of providing, so I went with the Prime (which I'm really happy with!). I gave my Leaf to my wife, who only drives about 8 miles per day at the most, and we're still having to charge it twice a week (probably because she has the heat on high most of the time).
     
  3. mister2cool

    mister2cool Member

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    Interesting to see that I am not the only one who feel this way as I thought I would be. Coming from a Gen 2, I thought having 25 mile EV would be perfect addition to an already great driving experience. I never thought it would actually cause such "range anxiety" especially when I can easily make it on EV to work which is 13 miles, and about 18 if I have to pickup\dropoff kid. Then there's the situation using Charge mode on longer highway trips, and trying to time it perfectly so I can use up the charged juice exactly when I get home. I mean it's like it has made me making driving much more complicated than it should be or need to be.
    Finance wise, I can only look up trade in value for a 19 Advanced as there's no data available for 2020 models. The high range for 19 Advanced is 28K so I figure a 2020 should be around there. Fed tax credit should cover all or at least most of money loss so it'll be as if this purchase never happened I guess.. Full $7500 Fed tax credit on LEAF, $5000 rebate from NJ state, $2500 from utility, plus no sales tax on EV would bring SL+'s 44K MSRP down to the level of a Prime Limited.. I don't even know if there are other dealer incentives going on. That's why it seems quite interesting...
     
  4. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Ummmmmm .... lemme think about that. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

    True, but the only time that ever happened with us was on a November visit to Ohio. :)
     
    #24 jerrymildred, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2020
  5. triggerhappy007

    triggerhappy007 Active Member

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    I actually did what you're planning to do. I traded my 17 Prime Premium for a 19 Leaf SL 40 kWh 14 months ago. It ended up being about an even trade after all the incentives. I have 30,000 miles on it now. I live in TX and been using free DC charging almost daily so my battery life is lower than normal. It's at 90% now, but the loss won't be linear. Since you live in the NE and won't DC charge, you'll be fine. I've only had one problem so far and that was a dead 12V battery at the 1 year mark. I just used my USB battery pack jumper to start it. Things I like about the Leaf are: much faster acceleration, no oil changes, much better adaptive cruise control and lane centering for commuting, e-Pedal, more luggage capacity, 360 degree camera, tire pressure display, Infotainment easier to use. That's all I can think of for now. Stated range for my model is 151 miles, but I can only get that if I drive at 55 mph between 50F and 100F. You will lose about 1/4 to 1/3 of your range when it's below 32F. When I drive at 70 mph for my 110 mile commute without traffic, it will use up 80% of the battery. If there's traffic, it will only use 70%, so traffic is good for the battery, except when it's below freezing. PM me if you have any questions.
     
    #25 triggerhappy007, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
    Tideland Prius and jerrymildred like this.
  6. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Be careful when you are calculating the true cost of swapping cars. It's not just sales price of the new car and trade-in value of the old car your have to think about.

    I did a hard calculation on swapping my 2017 PRIME with a new 2020 PRIME. Using the best possible numbers for the sale price of the car (including all the incentives, credit and rebates) and trade in value the dealer may give me, there is a possibility of getting a new car with very little money or even some money back in my pocket. But, when I considered associated higher excise tax and insurance premium on a new car, it was clear that the swapping to a new car would cost more money than keeping the old one. I can do a similar calculation with other new cars with deep incentives, but if I change to a different car than what I drive now, then I will also have to consider a new purchase of set of snow tires with rims (unless they are the same size as old car) and other vehicle specific accessories that would not transfer from the previous car. For example, a BEV like LEAF would require me to install L2 EVSE at home. That would bump the total cost of new car ownership much higher.
     
    #26 Salamander_King, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  7. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Dumping a brand-new 5-month-old car for another brand new car isn't what I would call 'financially prudent' but it's sounds like you're really into getting EXACTLY what you want in a car and you have L2 charging at work.

    The real answer here depends on how much value you place in the $5,000 or so that you'll blow through in depreciation, extra taxes, etc...and that's something only YOU will be able to answer with the help of maybe a financial planner.

    What's your debt loading?
    What's your retirement plan?
    Are you on the front nine of your working career?
    Is your house paid off?
    Single or married?
    Kids/college?

    You seem to be one of those rare people whose needs can be met with a BEV....and you also enjoy driving one.
    This informs me that your next car probably SHOULD be a BEV.

    When and what that next car is depends on your situation, but if I had to do a snap-shot based on your OP....I'm guessing that you're asking the question because you're unsure.
    That's usually a warning sign.

    Best of luck!
    Let us know what you decide....
     
  8. NSXT

    NSXT Active Member

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    PHEV is not for everyone IMO.

    In order to be the most efficient and use a bit of gas, a lot of EV/HV manual flipping is a must. I will never drain my battery to zero to kick in ICE (other than cold temperature (below -11C) and heat-auto flip to ICE)

    BEV uphill is a killer. Tesla/Leaf with bigger battery are great but same theory when it goes uphill, the kwh/100km is extremely high.

    I prefer to carry a smaller battery instead of a heavy battery (dead weights) around.

    I would really consider a BEV when Solid State Battery is being used as my primary car.

    To the OP, if I were you, I would keep the Prime but it is also your decision to make being at your comfort zone level (y)
     
  9. mister2cool

    mister2cool Member

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    Both of you made great points about the true cost of changing cars, and I definitely agree that this generally wouldn't be considered "'financially prudent" and that's why I a thinking so hard about it. It's not because such a transaction would actually put a dent in my financial situation. I mean I'd feel the pinch if I traded it up to an Audi e-Tron. Having said that I do want to make the best and financially responsible decision possible, and for that reason Tesla's are never in consideration for the tiny fed tax credit. I have had leased cars in the past that I absolutely hated and couldn't wait to hand it back to the dealer close to the end of the leases.

    There is no sales (exercise) tax on EV in the state of NJ while there is on PHEV so there is no added sales tax for the higher priced car. However this just made me realize a math mistake I made. No sales tax means I wouldn't be able to recover the 6.75% sales tax I paid on the Prime as one normally would with a trade-in. hmmmmm... LOL that's making the decision more difficult.
     
    Salamander_King likes this.
  10. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    OP stated "The math comes out to roughly even and I may end up with extra sales tax back in my pocket." This is quite true for many PRIME owners in our area. Many PRIME owners have traded in 2017 PRIME to 2018 PRIME and again 2018 PRIME to 2019 PRIME, now for 2020 PRIME and made profit doing so. Or some may have paid a little to upgrade. This is all because of a deep discount with incentives and tax credits they offer on this car. That being said. Sometimes one have to dig deeper to calculate true cost of swapping cars that early as I pointed out in comment above.
     
  11. mister2cool

    mister2cool Member

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    That's interesting.. I test drove a 2020 SV+. even with it's 214HP, I felt the Prime had quicker acceleration in EV mode, and that the Prime is overall a more agile car being that it is a lot lighter.
    Good to hear about your experience! Are there things on the LEAF that you do not like and you miss about the Prime?
     
  12. utsug

    utsug Active Member

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    Did you even consider Bolt?
     
  13. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    I find it a little difficult to believe that you could 'wait several months' for a $35,000 car, pay TTL, drive it for several months and then trade it back in for another new $35,000 car and pay TTL and "come out even."

    EVEN If that were true, I would likely still be driving an 11 year old vehicle to work because making more than one car payment isn't my idea of being financially prudent.
    By 'one car payment'....I mean the payment that you make when you buy the car.

    Many people who are far more financially astute than I am manage to be wealthy by maintaining large debt loading.
    If, for example, you can make 8-percent in the market with $30,000 cash and banks only charge 4-percent interest for a new car loan then obviously only chumps pay cash for cars - right?
    (Zero-percent APR deals are for usually for people who do not know how to buy cars)

    ---maybe.
    ...of course, sometimes smart people get burned (or Berned) in the market, so I like to keep things nice and simple.
    "Simpletons" like me usually pay for stuff with cash.
    That way we know we can afford it.

    As always....
    YMMV
     
  14. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Yeah, that is almost always true for any new car purchase. But for PRIME (and maybe true for some other EVs) with deep incentives and tax credit, if you play the cards right, you could have made profit by buying 2017 PRIME and trading it in for 2018 PRIME following year, and year after for 2019, and again year after for 2020.

    In my case, if I can trade in my 2017 PRIME, which I paid $19,899 2.5 years ago, at KBB average trade-in value of $19,025 and buy 2020 PRIME new, I actually come ahead when I get $4502 tax credit back next year. Even at the KBB low trade-in price of $18,010, I am very close to be even if the sales price on2020 is similar to what I got on 2017. There were quite few people in PRIME price thread who has done this. The only thing is that, I have to wait whole year to get the tax credit, and with increased excise tax and insurance premium, the profit may not be very big or negative even if I can strike the best price on a new PRIME.
     
    #34 Salamander_King, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  15. thymara

    thymara Junior Member

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    I'm the opposite, everything on airline credit card. They give me a companion air fare as well as cash, really appreciate it when we travel.
    I lease my vehicles with the term coordinated with warranties. I pick a number I can afford short-term while waiting for auto technology to get better. Right now electric is becoming more prevalent, although not so much where I live, and then there's hydrogen coming. Leasing makes it simple to upgrade.
     
  16. mister2cool

    mister2cool Member

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    That seems a bit unnecessarily harsh. 0% financing was a product of auto companies running themselves into a pickle with their cost structure and a economic recession that resulted in a 0% Fed rate. In that situation making money on cars in no longer relevant, as long as they can continue to make and have revenue coming in to pay, no to service as in paying the interest, on all the debt they racked up. Problem is once you let the customers got use to that, you can no longer take it away. Customers would just say I'll wait for the 0% offer to come around again. In today's world, companies live quarter to quarter and they can't afford to wait and have no choice but to keep that program going.

    In any case, I am absolutely with you on the point of exercising financial responsibilities and not live beyond the means by racking up debts. We do have a mortgage but 3 cars with no car payment. One of the reasons that I even started looking to replace my old Gen 2 last year was to look for ways to reduce our tax liabilities, as my wife's company got acquired unexpectedly and we were looking at a large hit from her stocks being cashed out.

    At the time LEAF did not have nearly as many incentives so it's high price point took it out of the consideration very early. I admit that I was not well informed on EV's at the time to even look at other players in the market other than Tesla. Ultimately the familiarity of Prius and hybrid and much lower price points won the battle easily.. Now after a few month of driving and learning much more about BEV\HV\PHEV, I think I MIGHT be happier in a straight up BEV instead of driving myself crazy with this EV\HV experience, and the incentives available might make the switch financially viable.
     
  17. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    Who is buying these 1-3 year old Primes for the same price as a new one after tax credits? And if that's the trade-in price, the dealer has to sell it for probably $1000 more to make it worth their while. It seems like most people buying a $20,000 car should have enough income to be able to take advantage of most of the full $4500 tax credit. In Colorado the $5000 state tax credit is refundable (so you get the full benefit even if you don't normally owe $5000 in taxes).
     
  18. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    The number I used is a trade-in value at a dealer. I may be able to buy a new 2020 PRIME at ~$19K, but the dealer I am buying it from is selling the car at $28K. The difference is paid by tax credit, incentive, and Toyota rebate. The $18K - $19K used PRIME they buy is most likely sold at location other than NE where there is no Toyota rebates exist, at much higher price.
     
    #38 Salamander_King, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  19. Priuslover09

    Priuslover09 Member

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    Is the 2020 car any good?
     
  20. mister2cool

    mister2cool Member

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    I agree.. that's why I don't think it would make sense at all to try to sell it myself so trade in would be the only real option.

    I would definitely say that it is a good car but it's kinda being squeezed in a pretty niche market segment.
     
    Priuslover09 likes this.