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Individuals endangering others by exercising their faith

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Georgina Rudkus, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    From an outbreak management standpoint, they are probably boxed in to doing election week instead of day- distancing requirements and cleaning voting machines between uses will slow things down.

    It's too late to ramp up the number of polling places by 10x so maybe they just change the staffing plan to operate 10x longer? There probably won't be any contention for the spaces they've temporarily taken over but I don't know if there will be problems with rules.
     
  2. dubit

    dubit Senior Member

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    1st Amendment people. If your willing to give up on that one, then be ready to give up on all of them.

    I'm a bit amazed at people's willingness to be restricted by the Gov. I'm ok at the moment, but Authorities by nature throughout history are notorious for taking things a "little bit further" each time. So the next time this thing swings around (which they say it will) - do we yet again hunker down and restrict multiple of millions of people? Heck, this Country was founded by people seeking Religious Freedom. So regardless if your religious or not (which i'm not) I do recognize their right to practice their faith. And I'll defend their right to do so - did for years.
     
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  3. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    No it doesn't.
    You are wrong, wrong, WRONG.
    Nobody is limiting anybody's "free speech", they are just dictating how the crowd that forms is to be restricted.
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    not sure how the above reply corresponds to the quote (n)
     
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  5. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    It's not about free speech, it's about freedom of religion.
     
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  6. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    You are still wrong, maybe even more so.

    IF you want to attend a religious service where 1000 people will be in close proximity to each other, that is fine with me.
    As long as you STAY in that group and nobody leaves for the next month or so.

    "Your" freedom of (anything including religion) ends where my freedom to protect my health starts.
     
  7. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    So it's about speech, and freedom to assemble. As for religion, it's been widely misconstrued to be a separation of church and state, when it actually just says that congress cannot make laws that establish religions or restrict their practices.

    The most direct conflict is the freedom to peaceably assemble. And while we still have that right, exercising it in our current situation would be at best foolish and at worst criminally negligent. It's a shame that the people are so "unwise" (kindest word I could think of) that the government has to even consider restricting large meetings.
     
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  8. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Stupid Jerry.
    Stupid is the word you are looking for. (y)
     
  9. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Well, there were a few worse than "stupid" that passed through my mind. :whistle:

    As for me and my house, we'll keep serving the Lord in the best ways we can manage that don't create undue risk or test God's abundant mercy.
     
  10. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    The first amendment goes beyond speech- it also covers the right to peaceful assembly.

    The only thing wrong with it is that the amendment was not written in or for a pandemic, so the authors did not specify what we should do in the situation where that peaceful assembly is also a sociopathic attack on non-participants of said assembly.

    I would think that it could be argued that any assembly done in an outbreak like this cannot be defined as "peaceful" but I still read my constitutional law one gum wrapper at a time.
     
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  11. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    The First Amendment has it's limits, like yelling fire in a crowded room with only one exit.

    Sn individual has no right to endanger others or the public welfare.
     
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  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Jerry, man, you get to write my sermons any day.
     
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  13. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    Basically, it's how selfish are you? And, how much you care about fellow man?

    Most all religions and even athirst advocate to care for and love thy neighbor.
     
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Many of us are athirst these days.
     
  15. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

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    Churches are particularly high risk areas for the spread of COVID-19. The story of Patient 31 in South Korea is a warning sign regarding how this disease can rapidly propagate in religious communities:

    2019 coronavirus: The Korean clusters

    The key quote:
    One person (Patient 31) introduced it to megachurch services leading to 1200 cases. This pandemic is like a fire, spreading by small embers introduced into flammable areas. Since we've done such a bad job of managing the embers (testing, tracing), we can only reduce the flammable materials (social distancing, shut downs) to stop the spread.
     
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  16. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    The English language was in common use in 1918 when we faced something like this before....and because people tend to write stuff down, there are records in the US that actually GO that far back.
    There are examples from those ancient times of cities pandemicing better than some others....

    AND worse!

    Since the US is (still) a republic....solutions to public health threats are a bottom-up thing.
    This MEANS that a city CAN ABSOLUTELY shut down a church....or break up an assembly...or CAN institute a dusk-dusk curfew.
    Counties can do it.
    So can States....and even the Federal government.
    It is all written down (in fairly simple English, even!) on that document that everybody cites as their justification to do stuff.

    If you work for an agency that ends in dot.gov or dot.mil you ABSOLUTELY CAN shut down churches, assemblies, and restrict travel.
    You just have to do a little paperwork first.

    When THIS pandemic is over with, folks will write stuff down...again.

    The human animal is not very well equipped to do long term risk assessment.
    That is why people smoke, eat too much and have large credit card balances......
     
    #36 ETC(SS), Apr 5, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
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  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and get in over their heads
     
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The latter results in the former. Unless you are cool with the President or Supreme Court declaring one religion the official one of the country.

    Exactly. The Court has upheld limitations on our freedoms enshrined in the Bill of Rights when the justifications and applications for those limits are themselves limited. That is the case with a pandemic. The disease will fade into a minor issue through nature or science, or the healthcare infrastructure will grow to handle all the extra sick people, and the restrictions can end.
     
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  19. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    While I think the ideal, is when trying to slow a pandemic no large gatherings of people should include religious and church based gatherings.
    It kind of defeats a lot of hard work, if we are all trying to stay 6ft. away from each other in the supermarket, but sitting side by side in church.

    I kind of default to all this is temporary. We will reach a place where things return to normal.
    Given the temporary nature of the current situation, I have to side for NOT having gatherings in churchs, or gatherings based on practice of faith. For the good of everyone.

    This isn't anti-religion, anti-church, it's just "Pro" the situation we are all dealing with right now.
     
  20. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Do you mean atheist? I am neither theist nor atheist. Agnostic is the position I take.