What Prius Prime needs.

The new Camry and Rav4 hybrids have the more advanced engine with hybrid port and direct injection, making them more efficient.

 

Is the gas mileage comparable? I think not. The Prius efficiency is the sum of its parts, of which aerodynamics plays an important part. It isn't just the engine.

 

The 2001 Insight has a slightly better combined EPA rating than the 2020 Prius.
I would not say it was as technologically advanced as the Prius.
Compare Side-by-Side


When the Prius gets the new engine technology, it will do even better than it does now.

 

2001?! I don't get the point you are making.

I seem to remember there were discussions of Direct Injection on Prius Chat. Carbon buildup on the valves is a negative. I thought I read that it doesn't work as well on Atkinson cycle engines as on Otto cycle engines, but I may be wrong on that. If it makes a big difference, I would expect Toyota would have done it already. The Iconiq has a DI engine. I don't think there's much difference between performance and economy between the two vehicles.

 

The EPA testing was different back then, it's closer to real now. There's no way the insight got 60MPG average on the highway back then.

 

The EPA adjusted older cars' values to be comparable to the modified test. The Insight's numbers under the old system were 61 city and 68 highway. The original Insight with manual was a monster in the hands of a hypermiler; the record was in the 180 to 200 mpg range, and that wasn't on a track. It was possible to get a gen2 Prius over 100mpg, but not that high. Newer Prii got better fuel economy for everyday people, but the absolute potential tended to drop.

My point is that it doesn't take advanced technology to get high fuel efficiency out of a car design, which is what you moved the goal posts too when I pointed out the Prius doesn't have Toyota's most advanced engine.

The Insight did it with aerodynamics, aluminum body, manual transmission, and lean burning engine. Absolutely nothing new about any of those things. The Kammback that is a big part of its and the Prius' aerodesign was developed in the 1930's, Kammback - Wikipedia. The first Land rover had an aluminum body in 1948. Honda themselves were selling lean burn cars in 1980. The hybrid system is a mild one; the assist just means the electric side can contribute more than the bare minimum required to be called a mild hybrid.

Direct injection allows more power and better efficiency. Early examples had carbon build up issues. Advances that allow better control of the engine's system should mean less in the DI engines now out. That doesn't address the higher particulate emissions of DI though.

Toyota's new engine has both direct and port injection to address those issues. The new Camry hybrid LE saw a 30% combined mpg over the preceding one.The Li-ion battery and hybrid system improvements play a part, but most of it is due to the new engine. Engine improvements were always a driving force to the Prius' MPG gains.

Toyota didn't use the engine in the Prius simply because it wasn't ready commercially. That's why I say the Camry, Rav4, and likely other hybrid models have Toyota's most advanced hybrid system. To get great fuel economy out of a hybrid, and efficient engine is needed. The Outlander PHEV with the 2L Otto engine doesn't get much better fuel economy than the non hybrid.

 

If Toyota is creating these cars with groundbreaking mileage technology, I wonder why they went with the Trump administration rollback of mpg targets.?

 

I still don't believe it. You can take away hypermiling, that's not part of the numbers, but whatever. I'd have to really see it in action. (no way I'd buy a manual transmission though, so there's no way I'd buy one to see it in action!)

 

SUV's and pickups, they make more money on them already and will make even more.

 

It was really a matter of not wanting to fight the litigation that comes with each state wanting to adopt CARB rules on their own. That turns into a massive legal mess that ultimately just wastes resources & time. Having something from federal, consistent throughout the country is far more productive. It gets ugly when dealers turn on the technology. We saw that play out first hand here in Minnesota. The big auto show this year made it all too clear. They fought against having a dedicated section to display plug-in vehicles. The success of that from previous years took away from their own displays... and they made it obvious they weren't going to allow that to happen again.

 

As @Bob Comer said. The Tacoma is one of the best selling midsize pick-ups(not bothering checking numbers). It is also one of the least efficient. The Tundra is the least efficient.

Honda Insight MPG - Actual MPG from 1,102 Honda Insight owners
Got to scroll all the way down for the original Insight numbers, but only one model year didn't exceed the combined figure of 53mpg. At some year, Honda stopped offering the manual, so those numbers are just on the less efficient CVT.

A hybrid engine doesn't need to generate high power. Some of those technologies were skipped for being unneeded in addition to cost.

The new 2.5 in the hybrids is not exactly the same as the one in the ICE models. Without delving, i can't say exactly if because of need and/or cost. The hybrid one is more efficient.

Separate federal and CARB states have been the law of the land for decades; it has been so since the beginning. The expansion of CARB states had reached the point that their number of sales lead to the manufacturers stopped making separate engines for the two markets, and that happened years ago, at least by the time the gen2 Prius came out. Cars sold in federal states might be certified to a lower emissions standard, but they have the same engine codes as the ones sold in CARB states.

California and the CARB states wanted to stay with a higher fleet MPG target, which was still less than what was the original increased one. Toyota should have already been working towards that higher target, so siding with CARB shouldn't have been an issue. They could have simply stayed out of it. Instead they chose to side with the feds. Probably because their CAFE numbers had been dropping.

 

Would a 50 mile Prius Prime have only gotten MPG in the mid 40's too? If so then the 25 mile range and mid 50's seems like a better configuration to me. My Prius Prime was under $40,000. I can drive all electric for a work week with the 25 mile range. I can charge at work for fee but don't because I don't need to so I leave it open for people that need to. I have to as it is force the Prime to burn gas quarterly in order to keep the gas from going stale in it. Extra battery would be of limited use to my needs. Once I go past the 25 mile range only another 25 miles would be electric and then the rest of it would use an extra gallon 18.5% sooner for the remainder of a trip. I wouldn't want to keep pulling over during a long trip so I would only charge while breaking for gas, food and rest rooms and charge only while eating and walking the dogs. So I think overall the Prius would cost less in a road trip.

The Volt also is a Chevy and I have not had a single Chevy that didn't have electrical issues of some sort. I wouldn't trust a Volt or Bolt nearly as much as I trust my Prius Prime. On top of that it seems that Chevy has a history of killing electric vehicles and currently has zero hybrids while Toyota is expanding their line up. All Chevy has is a Electric Sonic like car, talk and a crap ton of heavy lumbering gas guzzling SUVs and trucks.

 

The post you quoted was the end to a sub thread. It started with me refuting a Prime with 50 miles EV range and liquid cooling would cost over $50k. The Volt is real world proof that it wouldn't. It's starting MSRP was under $34k. GM was able to cut $6k to $7k from the gen1 price with the gen2 improvements. The Premier was $38,120, so you would have to add options to get it over forty grand. The Volt's discontinuation is about the drop in sedan sales, not it; GM cancelled all the cars made at the factory that made the Volt.

GM was focusing on EV performance for the Volt, and adding exceptional hybrid efficiency to that would increase the price. Then the gen2 did improve that over the gen1. The Prius has one of the most efficient drive trains on the planet, so I do believe a Prime 50 would best the Volt in efficiency.

The Ioniq Electric was once the most efficient BEV in the US. The 2020 efficiency dropped when Hyundai increased its range. The battery pack went from an air cooled 28kWh to a liquid cooled 38.3kWh one. 10kWH is likely the most needed to get 50 miles EV in a Prime. The weight increased by about 210 pounds. The combined MPGe dropped from 136 to 133, with the EPA's rounding, it doesn't show in the kWh/100mi rating. The price increased by about $4000. Adding that to a Prime's price would leave it cheaper than a Volt, and the bigger battery would mean higher fed tax credit, so the net price could be very close to the Prime's now. With efficiency being close to what it is now.

In early discussions of the Prime, I said 25 miles EV is a good compromise between range and cost. It works well for you and others, but that isn't everyone; my commute is 61 miles round trip without charging at work for instance. Which is why some have asked for a 50 mile Prime here. Toyota could build a plug in for their needs, or let them go to someone that will.

The point at which a Volt would start using more gas than a Prime on a trip is around 100 miles. But fuel per trip or MPG isn't the correct metric to look at when evaluating PHEVs to buy, it is fuel use over a month or year. The Prime works for you, but it could mean more gas used for someone that goes over the EV range daily compared to a Volt.

I admit my Chevies were prone to issues more often than my Toyotas, but not electrical ones. the discussion is about Toyota making a PHEV with 50 miles of EV range, not getting a Chevy instead of a Toyota though.

GM's decisions are frustrating at times, but the US is not the world. The Volt lives on in China, and perhaps we'll see more BEVs from them here. Selling hybrids without plugs is tough in the US with its gas prices. If prices had stayed up, the shift SUVs wouldn't have happened. The Prius has been losing sales year after year, and it would be worse without the Prime. The hybrid cars aren't selling much better than they did in the past, despite solving the trunk problem and near Prius fuel economy. The Rav4 hybrid is a bright spot because it's a SUV, and Toyota hid the hybrid price in the AWD price. Will arrival of the Escape and CR-V hybrids expand the segment, or lead to just fighting among themselves.

Toyota's heavy lumbering SUVs and trucks are less efficient than Chevy's, and they would love to have Chevy's market share with them. The Tacoma, which does sell in high numbers, is one of the least efficient midsize pick ups available in the US. I know you can get a f150 that is more efficient.

 

If a Prius with longer range could keep the efficiency I would be for that as long as the price didn't creep up too terribly much. Although it will be a while before I am in the market again (crosses fingers). Maybe at that point the charging stations network will be better and charge times will be quicker. If so possibly my next car will be full electric.

I don't know how long you have been using Chevy or the other clones but I can tell you all manner of issues in my Dad's hand me down '93 Pontiac Grand AM GT, 2012 Chevy Cruze LTZ RS, 2014 Silverado 1500 and 2015 Silverado 2500. The Pontiac was the worst. It had engine problems at 80,000 miles where a cylinder was miss firing and stalling out on the road. It was in the shop for a long time. The fuel gauge stopped working. In the cold the defroster and heater would short out. The clock would come and go and the speakers crapped out at some point. To top it off the AC stopped working while I was in college down in Savannah GA. I hated that car.

My Cruze was better for a while but the engine still crapped out before it's time. However I found out too late it was because the engine was designed for premium but detuned for regular and advertised as only needing regular. However on hot days the engine would knock and overtime that would destroy the engine. When we got the Sonic I used premium from day one thinking it would be fine.

More on the Cruze, the navigation audio would cut out. After taking a hands free phone call the audio source would no longer work 50% of the time. The heated seats stopped working three different times. The transmission coolant line started leaking as soon as the warranty expired. Had I not been vigilant the car could have self destructed very easily. The transmission was slipping at 70,000 miles completely wasted along with eh turbo by 130,000 miles. I managed to eek out another 8,000 miles before trading it in. We got less then two years out of it after paying it off.

Then when we traded the Cruze in I made the poor decision of buying a 2019 Sonic Hatchback because I liked the idea of a hatchback and it was 20% off plus the dealership gave us 50% more on the trade then blue book as a special deal. However in the 11 months we had it before getting it repurchased by Chevy at great expense of time and aggravation it had the fuel cap, gas peddle, and transmission shifter replaced once. It also had the backup camera replaced four times and the radio twice. It was in the shop nearly all of March 2020 and in and out several times in February 2020. It didn't even have 8,000 miles on it.

We purchased the Prius Prime in November of 2019 and it has just about the same milage as the Sonic did when it was repurchased. It's been on two long road trips for my husbands work and has just under 7,000 miles on it now. However it has not ben in the shop a single day for repairs. It has only been in for an oil change, installation of a clear bra and near limo tint for the rear windows and slightly less aggressive tint in the front windows. It hasn't so much as rebooted the radio once or done anything that could be considered a glitch or defect. That to me is a strong indication of brand quality.

Maybe Chevy's SUVs are built better, but I will never know first hand because I'm not willing to take the chance. They cost too much and you get too little. The quality of an Equinox Premiere vs RAV4 Limited is night and day. The RAV4 has leather stitched to the interior panels. It has ambient lights, textured grip for the handles in the doors on the back for your hands. The gauge cluster is much nicer. The navigation system is better. It even has ventilated seats. I could go on and on how awesome it is. So when GM repurchased the Sonic we replaced it with a 2020 RAV4 Limited Hybrid. I know it costs a lot more then the Sonic but we have been so impressed with the Prius range that it costs nearly as little as the Sonic did when factoring in expenses and monthly payment that we figured we could upgrade the second vehicle if we keep both for a good amount of time. So now I have the Prius and the RAV4 goes to my husband.

I know this was long and drawn out and only once couples experience with the Chevy brand. Right now especially right now I have a bad taste in my mouth from them.

Regarding the Volt being discontinued the fact that the other cars where also discontinued doesn't mean much to me. Chevy doesn't appear to be sincere about going electric. They killed the EV1 and used heavy handed tactics to et them all back. They seemed to only care about finding out if the dealerships could survive electric cars. As soon as the volt had no more tax incentive the plug was pulled. These things make me question GM's commitment for the Bolt.

I think the Bolt is a great car on paper. I love the hatchback. I like smaller vehicles. The range is great. The charge speed is acceptable but could be better. However after the experience with the Cruze longevity and the Sonic being an electrical nightmare along with needing repairs that should never have been needed in the first place I seriously question the Bolt's quality.

I can only speak from my perspective and what I have seen. So my perspective is here in the States Chevy has no hybrids and one overpriced EV with a dubious future in my opinion. They don't seem committed to the future.

I know that Toyota and the other brands have lumbering SUVs and trucks. But Toyota and Honda have some SUV hybrid offerings. The RAV4 Hybrid really impressed us. Chevy has nothing in this market that can compete. Based on my experience with the 1.4L Turbo I would not want the Trax, Equinox or Trail Blazer and any other of their vehicles using a turbo. It's nothing but a death sentence for the motor and they are no where near as fuel efficient as a hybrid variant.

I think Chevy would have been better to keep the Volt and introduce and Equinox or Trail Blazer Hybrid to complete with the RAV4 Hybrid and CRV Hybrid models. I don't see that happening though.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the Hybrid version of the Escape has existed for a while. I'm weary of them too though. I have heard about the issues the Fiesta and Focus had and have been scared to give them a shot.

Anyways that is the last I'll mention Chevy. I adore the Prius Prime.

 

Anyone hazard an opinion on why a Tesla 3 needs to beat a Supra at the 1/4 mile. Seems an Elon Musk ego trip to me.

 

I had a hand me down '86 Park Avenue from my grandfather. The speedometer only worked occasionally, got me out of speeding ticket, but always started working for the annual NJ inspection. Friend nearly lemon lawed his Grand Am, but our family's GMs lasted over 100k miles without issue. I remember the Astrovan and Luminas, because I hated driving them. Only my 2013 Sonic was gotten rid off early, as I had to go down to one car. kept the Camry, but preferred the Sonic as it was actually more comfortable for me.

My new 2005 Prius had to go in for a loose exterior trim piece. Around that time, Toyota was having problems with engine sludging in some of their engines. Plenty of discussion about the carbon build up in Gen 3 Prius engines here. The redesigned EGR in your gen 4 should have fixed that.

Which is completely fair. One of the reasons I kept the Camry was because it should have less problems.

Toyota was right there with GM fighting California over the ZEV mandate of the time. They were crushing the leased Rav4s before giving in to public outcry to stop.

The plant that made the Volt was one those that GM closed in the past year. It also made the Impala, LeCrosse, and CT6. All of which were also cancelled, and none of which were getting government subsidies. The status of the incentives had very little financial incentive in GM's decision regarding the Volt. It was because not enough were selling to justify keeping a huge factory open for just it alone, and moving production to another plant would cost millions. The Cruze sedan was also cancelled at this time, and the only reason the hatchback was spared was because it is made in Mexico.

GM didn't handle their hybrid programs well. The Impala had a mild hybrid system for a bit, but I didn't hear about it until after it was cancelled. Besides that, hybrids are a tough sell with cheap gas. Ford stopped offering the Escape hybrid for a generation, and the hybrids they had during that time also had a PHEV option. Honda had stopped selling hybrids for a few years here, and they stated it was because of our low fuel prices. The Prius came out 23 years ago, and Toyota hasn't been rushing to spread the tech around in US models during that time.

GM will support the Bolt because they need it for the CARB ZEV program. That is also why you were able to get the Prime. Toyota was betting they could satisfy the program by selling the Mirai, but reality set in. The only BEVs Toyota makes are sold in China, where they are forced too.

The only traditional car companies serious about BEVs at this time are Renault/Nissan and VW. Norht America is just number 3 in terms of plug in market, so they are going to prioritize Europe and China for their BEV output.

Tesla targets European sports sedans as their design benchmark. The Supra is a reskinned BMW. It is build alongside the G29 BMW Z4 in Austria. Performance versions of the Model 3 are targeting the
performance models of the 3 and 4 Series, which the Z4 is part of.. It doesn't need to beat the Supra, it just happens too.

 

from past history, it seems to sell cars