Warner’s Iraq Remarks Surprise White House

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Oct 7 2006, 09:55 AM) [snapback]329445[/snapback]</div>

What is more important to Republicans?


Winning the elections?

or

Anything, ANYTHING! else you can imagine?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Oct 8 2006, 09:32 AM) [snapback]329751[/snapback]</div>

You could say the same about the Democrats. Just one more thing they have in common.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 8 2006, 06:05 PM) [snapback]329872[/snapback]</div>

Daniel,

Do you honestly believe that you and the country are no worse off with Bush as president than we would have been had Al Gore been elected in 2000?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Oct 8 2006, 08:32 PM) [snapback]329919[/snapback]</div>

What I really believe, seriously and soberly is this:

Sure, Bush is worse than Gore. He spends a wee bit more on the military than Gore would have done, and he tramples on the environment a bit more than Gore would have done. On Women's rights issues Gore is better. Gore is probably more favorably inclined to some sort of acess to medical care for the poor and middle class and would probably favor a slight increase in the minimum wage, but it's doubtful he'd have gotten Congress to pass anything on either issue even if his party had a majority, since most of his party is more conservative than he is and would have opposed him on these.

HOWEVER:

Both men, like their respective parties, are absolutely committed to:

1. An obscenely large amount of military spending, which deprives any other program of that money;

2. The belief that war is justified, if it serves the "national interest," and that the deaths of countless innocent civilians is merely "collateral damage," something to regret, but not something to consider when deciding to go to war; the belief that somehow war and "terrorism" are in some way different.

3. Capitalism: An economic model in which all economic activity is motivated by profit (greed) and in which competition, rather than cooperation, is the order of the day. All decisions (including those that affect the wider community) are made by the investors or their agents, and are made solely on the basis of what will result in maximum profit, regardless of the effects on the community. Workers are at a competitive disadvantage with respect to employers, and individuals who canot compete in the labor market, due to being less intelligent, less competent, less physically strong, or having visible characteristics susceptible to discrimination by employers, are simply left out of the mainstream economy.

And both men and their parties are dependent on large campaign contributions from the super-rich and transnational corporations, and therefore when elected must be beholden to those contributors. All citizens have the right to petition their government for the redress of grievances, but only those super-rich and the corporations, the big campaign contributors, have access to the decision-makers.

Given all this, I believe the nation will continue on its downward path with either party. I liken the nation to a canoe headed for a hundred-foot waterfall. The Republicans are shouting "Stay the course!" The Democrats are murmuring, "Maybe we ought to paddle just a wee bit more slowly." The Green Party is the only voice proclaiming, "We need to turn around and paddle away from the waterfall.

My Conclusion:

The only way we can ever hope to get out of this quagmire (war, debt, poverty, crime) is to create a new political force that will reject obscene military spending, that will look seriously at alternative economic models, and that will place the citizenry above the corporations. At this time, I think the Green Party is the most likely candidate for that political force.

The paradox is that for the Green Party to become a viable political force, it needs votes, and some of those votes will come from people who used to hold their nose and vote for the Democrat as the "lesser of two evils." It's a long-term view: By devoting yourself to the short term and voting for the lesser of evils, you assure that there will never be any choices but evil ones. But by taking the long-term view and voting for a third party, you increase the liklihood that the greater of the two evils will win the present election, but you create the possibility of a future in which there are three choices, and one of them is actually a good choice.

In my considered opinion, the Democratic Party is rotten to the core, and only by abandoning the "lesser of evils" philosophy will we ever have a hope of making this country a better place. The Green Party speaks for me, and will get my vote, even though it may be 10 or 20 years before it has a real chance of turning around the canoe of government, because without our votes, it will whither on the vine.

I give up hope for my generation in order to give the next a chance.

 

"The only way we can ever hope to get out of this quagmire (war, debt, poverty, crime) is to create a new political force that will reject obscene military spending, that will look seriously at alternative economic models, and that will place the citizenry above the corporations. At this time, I think the Green Party is the most likely candidate for that political force."

Daniel, I completely agree with your social democratic philosophy. In Canada, there is a social democratic party - the New Democratic Party, which always got my vote. As I have said in other posts, I think the best political system is the scandinavian model - capitalism, but controlled and regulated to benefit the people more than the corporations. Canada is much more like your ideal than the US. There is a budget surplus. There is almost no military. Crime is low, and the incarceration rate is much lower.

You are aware that the two major parties are completely under the thumb of the military industrial/corporate forces in this country. What makes you think that they would tolerate a political party diametrically opposed to their interests?. Things are worse than you imagine. This is where we disagree. I really don't know if there is a solution to this. By all means, vote for the Green party, if you believe in them. It will be very difficult to dislodge the power of corporations and the military in this country. It is cursed with being a superpower, unlike Canada or Sweden. As everyone knows, power corrupts; absolute (full spectrum dominence) power corrupts absolutely.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 9 2006, 07:43 PM) [snapback]329985[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 9 2006, 02:43 AM) [snapback]329985[/snapback]</div>

While I compliment daniel for his clarity of thought and consistency with his previous expressions on the topic, I fear that the Republicans have the capacity to render the nation nearly beyond repair in the time required to make way for the Green party by his estimation. There may be another way.

Wayne Morse, former Senator from Oregon in the Viet Nam era was a wise man in my estimation. He was a professor of Political Science at the University of Oregon before becoming a Senator. He often said that if he could be successful in redefining the acceptable Left, the acceptable political center would move with it about the same amount. He was correct. Ronald Reagan affirmed this theory in the opposite direction with a redifinition of the acceptable Right.

I am of the belief that this understanding of the body politic leads to the conclusion that a Democratic victory would actually favor the possible future emergence of the Green Party. Either that or tranformation of the Democratic Party into something more like the Green party. That can be so if the move away from the extreme Right lasts long enough. We will see how the pendulum swings.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Oct 9 2006, 08:42 AM) [snapback]330038[/snapback]</div>

Are you saying that we are doomed? If that's the case. it does not matter what we do or who we vote for. I prefer to keep doing whatever I can to try to make things better. If we are doomed, nothing is lost by trying.

I actually do not think that the solution lies in electoral politics, but rather in grass-roots organizing. This, too, is a long shot and a long-term effort. I am inclined to think that as long as people hate and fear their neighbors (something our government works hard to promote) then the best government in the world cannot make things better; but if people regard all humanity as their sisters and brothers, then the worst government in the world cannot hurt us.

The message I took away from Bowling for Columbine, was that we are living in a culture of fear. I think I got left out because, with the exception of a brief period in Mexico, I have lived without a TV, and therefore isolated from TV "news" since I moved out of my mother's house at the age of 16. Fear is the tyrant's greatest ally. A political party that does not address this issue head on is not my friend. Again, I think the only real hope (if there is any, and I have very little) is, as I said, in grass-roots organizing, to re-build the sense of community: the conviction that our neighbors are our friends. On the block level and on the global lvel.

Right now, everyone is voting their fear. People vote for Bush because they are afraid of the "terrorists," or they vote for the Democrats because they are afraid of Bush. I prefer to vote my hopes. So I vote Green.

BTW I love Canada. I considered moving there. It could still happen some day. But moving solves nothing. And Canada needs my radical efforts less than my own country does.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 9 2006, 06:43 AM) [snapback]329985[/snapback]</div>

Well said, Daniel.
I couldn't agree more.
This is why I find it so depressing that so many disillusioned voters simply don't vote.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 9 2006, 07:12 PM) [snapback]330292[/snapback]</div>

No, I don't have the luxury of thinking we are doomed; I have a 6 year old son. Saving the world is a very difficult endeavor, and you should not get depressed if progress seems very slow, or even, as has been the case over the past few years, has gone into reverse. I had assumed that people were gradually making progress and that religious fanaticism, state terrorism, and unchecked corporate greed would decline. I am truly surprised at how bad things have become. On the other hand, human life has always been difficult. Shakespeare lived in a time of religious fanaticism and tyranical government and he still managed to create amazing plays. Mozart was tossed into a beggar's grave - his reward for creating some of the most beautiful music ever written. So the world is a pretty bad place, but with all sorts of opportunities to do something worthwhile. Buying a Prius is a small step in the right direction, since we are harming the atmosphere a little less than if we bought an SUV. Focusing on grass-roots organizing sounds like a great idea to me. More change will come from that than from simply casting a vote.

Although the greedy and power mad may be in control of governments, they are not the majority. Many people go into fields where they may make the world a little bit better, like education or the arts. Good luck!

 

I can't add much more to Daniel's extremely elequent and well thought out argument.

Our current political system (as is advertising messaging and most else of what we're subjected to) is, indeed, based upon fear. And capitalism is, indeed, based on exploitation...of people, of natural resources, whatever is available.

Worse, I'm afraid that it goes even deeper. The system is basically about assigning value(s) to things. Whether that is determined by scarcity, or just selling something to someone to see how much they'll pay...in any case, unless we can reduce the value of materials and material objects, I think the struggles we're experiencing will always be with us.

 

Meanwhile...the number of U.S. casualties in Iraq rises to 2,774
http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/USfatalities.html
Isn't anyone in this administration ever going to be held accountable?

Also, with so many brave young men and women putting their lives on the line, I will really be embarrassed if we have another low midterm voter turnout. Regardless of what side you're on - vote!