1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Hiroshima - August 6

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by bwilson4web, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,066
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    My late Dad was a B29 tail gunner stationed in Arizona under orders to the Pacific when WW-II ended. For anyone to hindsight claim there were alternatives really doesn't understand. You have to make your decisions based on what you know at the time.

    Hiroshima-Nanking, Nagasaki-China, we can make a very long list but that does not raise the dead or make whole the survivors. I'm sympathetic to what happened but also realize we had plenty of our own war dead.

    Let us resolve that this should not be repeated ... knowing our species ... it is likely to happen again.

    Bob Wilson
     
    Montgomery, PaDad, hill and 3 others like this.
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    agreed. monday morning quarterbacks are endless, and the further away we get from a historical event, the easier it is to convince people it 'didn't happen the way they say it happened'.
     
  3. Mark57

    Mark57 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    2,945
    2,735
    0
    Location:
    OK
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Dad was on Okinawa right after its capture in June 1945 and was there when the Hiroshima bomb was dropped on August 6th. He said it was so secret that not much info reached the troops on the ground for quite a while.

    I lost Dad last year at the age of 96. He was still doing 2 miles a day on his treadmill a few months before he passed. He was a Sargent serving from 1942 - 1945 in the U.S. Army Air Corp 20th Bomber 1st Air Transport Command.

    Dad was awarded four Bronze Stars for heroic and meritorious achievements. He specifically saw action in the Asiatic-Pacific Theater and the China-Burma-India Theater (CBI). His squadron was the first group of C-46 transport planes to fly “The Hump” (the Himalayas) and completed over 32 missions. The C-46's were more powerful and could fly higher. The majority of C-47's that flew the same missions crashed.

    You young-ins don't understand that back then flying to Europe was tough due to lack of range. To get there, they flew to Homestead AFB, FL then to Rio de Janero, Brazil and then to Belem, Brazil just to get somewhere close enough to fly across to Egypt, refuel then to Kalaikunda AFB, India and on. During his time they went on to Burma, Sri Lanka, Ceylon and then Hong Kong because a typhoon blew then off course. Then to Liuyang, China, Leyte Island, Philipines, Guam, Okinawa. To get home, they left the less range and less valuable C-46's behind, switched to B-17's in Seoul, then to Guam, Hickman AFB, O'ahu, Mather Field, Sacramento, and discharged in San Antonio, TX.

    I could recount hours of stories from Dad why it many have been necessary or not but to them at the time, it was. I hope it does not happen again.

    We'll never see a generation like them again.
     
    #3 Mark57, Aug 6, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    Montgomery, Raytheeagle and Merkey like this.
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    mine was an airplane mechanic in guam. a high school grad who trained in seattle and dallas. passed in 2018 at 98, two months away from 99. amazing lives lived through those decades
     
    #4 bisco, Aug 6, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  5. John321

    John321 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2018
    1,103
    1,144
    0
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    bwilson4wb ,Mark57 and bisco you parents were part of one of the greatest generations that ever lived. I would think you were very proud of them. Our country owes a great debt to those brave citizens who lived during that time. It took a lot of strength and character to face the challenges they faced. I certainly appreciate your parents for their contributions to our country and freedom we now enjoy.
     
    #5 John321, Aug 6, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    Raytheeagle, Merkey and Mark57 like this.
  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,668
    6,481
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Just read Wallace's book Countdown 1945, ("co"written by Mitch Weiss)

    It's a short book and Chris gets it mostly right, without dwelling much on the "would they/wouldn't they" issue.
    75 years later there are MANY MANY aspects of the 2 bombings that are either unknown or forgotten by most.
    Probably one of the better articles on the morality of the subject is a podcast story by Dan Carlin, although the exact title escapes me.

    As mentioned above...if you want to understand Hiroshima and Nagasaki.....learn about Okinawa and Iwo Jima.

    Fun Fact:
    The 509th Bomb Wing, located at Whiteman Air Force Base, Missouri, is a direct descendant of The 509th Composite Group that bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One of it's more interesting skippers was a guy named Brig.General Paul Warfield Tibbets IV - Colonel Tibbetts' grandson.
     
    Mark57 likes this.
  7. Mark57

    Mark57 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    2,945
    2,735
    0
    Location:
    OK
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Those that don't have parents/relatives that were of the WWII age might not fully understand how big of a national thing it was. It's been 75 years and I remember conversations occurring in the last 4 years where when recalling certain people, they were still remembered as being 4F. "Oh, you remember so and so, he was 4F. Oh, yeah, him . . . " That sort of thing. Nor meant with malice, just a memory marker.
     
  8. Mark57

    Mark57 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    2,945
    2,735
    0
    Location:
    OK
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Tangent, but that's what we do here.;)

    Dad's older brother was on the USS Saratoga in 1937. Just before the war he shipped out to China in Nov 1941 to the USS Peary, DD-226, (destroyer class). See photo. There's a fascinating and sad book about the the Peary and all the friendly fire it took from British bombing runs on it between the Philippines and Port Darwin, Australia.

    My Uncle was lost with 80 crew when sunk at Port Darwin, Feb 19, 1942. Here is the story from the time he was aboard ship until then.

    Peary DD-226 served in the Far East from 1922 onward. With the Yangtze Patrol Force from 1923 to 1931, she made annual deployments in Chinese waters protecting American interests from 1931 to the outbreak of World War II.

    Peary was moored at Cavite, P.I., when news of the Pearl Harbor raid reached her and was caught in the raid on the Cavite Navy Yard, Philippines, two days later. On the early afternoon of 10 December more than 50 two-engined high level bombers appeared over Cavite and, cruising leisurely above the range of anti-aircraft fire, destroyed practically the entire base.

    Peary, tied up at a small pier, took one bomb forward which riddled the superstructure and stack and killed 8 of her crew. She found herself in a very precarious position, as fires began to set off torpedo warheads in a torpedo overhaul shop on the wharf next to her. Fortunately, minesweeper Whippoorwill towed her out. Whippoorwill and Pillsbury (DD-227) came alongside and their fire hoses extinguished the fire in five minutes. Her commanding officer, Comdr. H. H Keith was wounded in this engagement and was relieved by Comdr. J. M. Bermingham.

    On 26 December 1941, Peary was underway when the Japanese came over again and dropped several bombs near the ship.

    By the morning of the 27th, Peary was in Campomanes Bay, Negros Island, where she decided to put in for the day. Her crew camouflaged her with green paint and palm fronds, hoping to elude Japanese patrol bombers. Five passed overhead without spotting the ship that morning and when darkness fell she set out through the Celebes Sea for Makassar Strait.

    A four-engined Japanese bomber spotted Peary the next morning, and shadowed her until early afternoon when three other bombers joined her in a two-hour attack. The planes dropped 500 pound bombs and then launched two torpedoes only 500 yards from the ship. Peary quickly backed on one engine and both torpedoes narrowly missed the bow. Seconds later, two more missed the stern by ten yards. The bombers then withdrew.

    The New Year found Peary at Darwin, Australia. During January and a part of February, she operated out of Darwin principally on anti-submarine patrol. At about 10:45 a.m. on 19 February Peary was attacked by single-motored Japanese dive bombers and suffered 80 men killed and 13 wounded. The first bomb exploded on the fantail, the second, an incendiary on the galley deck house; the third did not explode; the fourth hit forward and set off the forward ammunition magazines; the fifth, another incendiary, exploded in the after engine room. A .30 caliber machine gun on the after deck house and a .50 caliber machine gun on the galley deck house fired until the last enemy plane flew away. Peary sank stern first at about 1 00 p.m. She was struck from the Navy List 8 May 1942.

    Taken from the USS Peary DD-226 by my Uncle in the Philippines 1941.
    Willis3.jpg

    Right or wrong, you had to be there. Hindsight is 20/20 sometimes.
     
    #8 Mark57, Aug 6, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    Montgomery, PaDad and ETC(SS) like this.
  9. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,668
    6,481
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Props to your uncle.
    My first day in Submarine school we all had to dress up and go to a retirement ceremony for a 40+ year Command Master-chief who was a screamin-seaman in Cavite.
    Since he was on one of the old S-boats.....he got to live, without surviving the Bataan Death March and subsequent imprisonment.
    I was an E-IOU-1 straight out of boot camp and I had just about enough common sense not to grumble about standing at parade rest for 2 hours watching tattooed middle-aged men wearing Navy Crosses and Silver Stars wiping away tears without a shred of shame or embarrassment.
    One kid wasn't quite that bright, and I remember hearing him getting an assectomy the next (working) day by the relieving CMC......and I wasn't exactly close to his office....... :eek:

    My dad joined just after the closing days of Dubbaya Dubbaya Deuce, and so I can't say for sure that his tank would have been destroyed on the Kantō Plain outside of Tokyo in late 1946 had the war not ended sooner, but I would not bet against it.

    I can say for certain that the 67 cities that were conventionally fire-bombed in 1945 generated many times more casualties than the two nucular attacks (deliberately sparing Kyoto, the ancient imperial capitol and cultural center.)
    LeMay (General in charge) himself said that incendiary attacks would have been an egregious war-crime had it not been for the decentralized nature of Imperial Japan's war production.

    Also (largely unknown outside history books) Bull Halsey's boys were busy sewing sea mines, effectively HALTING inbound shipping, and the subs operating in the inland seas literally were running out of shipping worthy of torpedoing.
    This all means that the Empire of Japan was months away from mass starvation - which means that the war probably would have ended in 1946......one way or another.
    Had the war not ended in September of 1945, it's almost dead-bang certain that Japan would have been bifurcated into the Republic of Japan and the People's Democratic Republic of Japan....meaning almost certainly that the Republics of Taiwan and Korea would not exist today...though it's arguable that an all commie nation of Korea might lean more towards the VeetNam/ChiComm kind of commies than the entirely dysfunctional DPRK that we know and love.

    History is complicated enough just trying to figure out what DID happen..... ;)
     
    #9 ETC(SS), Aug 6, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    Mark57 likes this.
  10. Mark57

    Mark57 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    2,945
    2,735
    0
    Location:
    OK
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Props to both you and your Dad for service rendered.

    Kantō Plain, the invasion of Tokyo. Code name Downfall and Operation Coronet, Kantō Plain.
     
    Montgomery and Merkey like this.
  11. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    3,626
    1,623
    0
    Location:
    Sanford, NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    Limited

    SHIPWRECKS - View

    I didn't even know about the Darwin raids despite being a destroyer Naval Officer and a reader of Naval history until my wife and I visited there perhaps 25 years ago.

    The above link contains some info on what happened after the sinking including efforts which recovered some remains.
     
    Mark57 likes this.
  12. Mark57

    Mark57 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    2,945
    2,735
    0
    Location:
    OK
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Thank you for that and for your service.

    Per the US Navy Individual Deceased Personnel File:
    The Peary went down at approximately, 12 degrees, 29 minutes South, 130 degrees, 50 minutes East, (-12.483333, 130.833333) with possible drift in a 314° direction. Attempts to find the ship with grapple Oct 31 through November 3, 1948 failed to find a trace. Excuses given were: changing water depth, poor visibility, tide, rip tide, currents and lack of proper search equipment. The report of this attempt dated 5 Nov. '48 went on to say even if the ship were found, retrieval of bodies would be very difficult since there was only about 40 minutes a day when currents would allow divers to work.

    The Graves Registration Service lists 84 officers and men who died that day on the Peary and those whose bodies were recovered were buried at Darwin or other cemeteries. Most of the men appeared to be Machinist Mates , Water Tenders, Fireman and Quartermasters.
     
    #12 Mark57, Aug 7, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,600
    8,034
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    42 days ago, July 1, dad passed - 96yrs. Who would know you could live that long, smoking heavy & drinking heavy - starting as a young teenager all the way to age 60. But after cleaning up, God gave him an extra 36 years and he didn't waste a moment of it. As a minor - his mother had to sign permission for him to join, especially as an only child. I always thought it was because teenagers think they are Immortal, and it was patriotic. No. He and his mom hated each other back then & she couldn't wait to get rid of him, he told me - just a few months ago. But that's what stupid kids do, to get out from under authority. They join the Marines. LOL. He & thousands of others hit the beach at Iwo as he called it.
    20200807_161302.jpg
    20200807_135513.jpg
    It was hard to pry anything out of him about the experience, but I'm sure the experience was why he could anger so easily over what seemed like small things.
    Even so - after his paradigm shift in his 60s, he was very sweet to our 18 year old Japanese exchange student. Times change. I'm glad he didn't have to see Americans, albeit thugs, burning down our cities.
    Yea - he wasn't looking forward to hitting the beach in Japan although trained as a paratrooper, they would have probably dropped him in, too who knows what) so he was very glad they invented the bomb.
    .
     
    #13 hill, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
    3PriusMike, PaDad, bisco and 2 others like this.
  14. Mark57

    Mark57 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    2,945
    2,735
    0
    Location:
    OK
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    My condolences to you and props to your Dad. Mine was also 96 when he passed.

    Dad would say a few things occasionally but he never talked about things much. He said would you want to talk about the worst thing you ever went through?

    If I was on the beach at Iwo Jima like your Dad, I would talk about it either.

    Can't replace these guys.
     
    #14 Mark57, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  15. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,600
    8,034
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Let's not forget the upside to the Japanese surprise attack. It forced us into a war where the European enemy was on the cusp of inventing their own atomic bomb, and but for the fact that they had chased all the brilliant Jewish scientists out, they would have had the bomb first, Rockets first, and jet fighters first. It would have positively been a much different outcome.
     
  16. Mark57

    Mark57 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    2,945
    2,735
    0
    Location:
    OK
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    With an excellent delivery system in the V2.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,066
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    The early atomic weapons were heavy enough that the B29 was needed to deliver. The operational V2 did not have the lift ... although it could have been engineered for a heavier lift.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,668
    6,481
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Props to your dad!
    I'm thinking that was more of a patriot than you're letting on.
    He could have had a MUCH softer gig than hitting the beach @ Iwo and everybody with a three digit IQ during Dubbaya Dubbaya Deuce KNEW that Marines were waaaaay out on the sharp end of the stick.
    A former neighbor of mine had a brief visit to the same island on the same day.....courtesy of a 7.7mm round from an Arisaka rifle.
    He never talked about it much either, but it seems that he forgave his former enemies enough to buy their pickup trucks for decades, and he was enough of a Christian not to speak about them in terms that would have me barred from the forum. ;)

    Concur.

    The B-29 was a major part of the weapons system that was the Manhattan project, and it was more rather than less purpose built for strategic work.......THAT is why they shoved it through the development process so quickly - severe growing pains and all.
    The aircraft was never used in Europe...because it was never needed in Europe.
    It would take about a decade and a half of frantic work on both sides of the iron curtain for nukes to shrink enough and rockets to develop enough to take over that task.


    Fun Fact:
    The Rooskies cloned the B-29 as a delivery platform for THEIR nucular weapons - warts and all. Nut for nut and bolt for bolt.....right down to a personal camera that was hanging in the plane that they xeroxed......at least that's the story according to Cold War lore.
    They called it the Tupolev Tu-4, (First flight May 1947) and they had some of the same deadly teething problems that plagued the Imperialist Yankee plane.

    [​IMG]
     
    Merkey and bwilson4web like this.
  19. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,035
    10,010
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Is this the same one where they also copied a patched bullet hole?
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  20. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,668
    6,481
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The Rooskies "interned" three intact B-29s.
    Two were kept whole and flight tested, and one was disassembled down to it's components for copying.



    From: Wiki-U:

    "....Only the first Tu-4 had that repair duplicated. Russian aeronautical engineers weren't dumb. There were some differences between the B29 and Tu-4, most notably in the thickness of the outer skin. The B29's skin was all the same thickness. Due to aluminum being in shorter supply in Russia, the skin on the Tu-4 varied in thickness, only matching the B29 where it was riveted to structural members. It was thinner between the structural supports."