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Headlights, Power Locks, Hazard lights, Cabin Lights, Signal lights ALL WORK -but Cannot Power Car

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Jouxse, Jun 21, 2020.

  1. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    Thanks for the message and the info. I have not gone anywhere near that safety lock. Just replaced the 12 volt. I am trying to remember what happened the last time my car started. I had a battery charger on it overnight under the hood. And the next day i hooked my husbands car up to the jumper cables. I tried the power button a few times and nothing happened. I kept trying until it came on. Probably after like 3 times of putting cables on and off. Then drove it around but probably for like 3 miles. Parked it and then tried next day and dead. Tried to jump and absolutely nothing with the power button. Lights in the car work, headlights. But the power button had no response. Thought the key so changed battery in key. Still nothing. Like it doesn't recognize keys.
    At this point I guarantee there is more than just one problem with car because it's been sitting idle for like 4 months.
     
  2. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    So mad i missed your message. But I probably was too much out of the way. I'm in Audubon, PA.
    And I suppose I can move everything out of garage to make room so yes I guess it's possible to tow. But a huge PITA!
     
  3. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    @Jouxse, FYI, anytime power is lost (due to a flat battery or battery removal/replacement), you need to press the power button twice with your foot pressing the brake pedal. The first press is like IG-ON, so lights all the warning lights in a test mode and powers on the MFD. The second press takes it to READY, all things being equal.
    That is nowhere enough to get the 12 V battery anywhere near full. Think more like 20 hours. You also do not need to drive the car, all you need to do is switch it on to READY and leave it in P with the foot-operated parking brake on. Presuming you have a safe and secure place (with adequate ventilation) to do this.

    I wouldn't actually recommend this method of charging except for the "you have no other option, right now" scenario. A better option is to put the 12 V on a fully automatic 3.5 - 5 Amp multi-stage battery charger. The good ones will go into a maintenance cycle at the end of charging, so you can just put the car on one of these chargers (and leave it on the charger) anytime you're either not going to be driving it for 4-5 or more days, OR you will only drive it for 3 miles when you do.
     
    #43 dolj, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  4. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    So I tried jumping the car again and would you believe it. The car started. I had to hit the power button a few times again this time. BUT it powered on!! I bought a minivci cable woth the techstream software but for some reason even with the car on it won't connect. So that was useless. I did get several error lights on my dashboard though this time. You could tell my car was hurting. The hazard with exclamation point and a new one I hadn't seen before - VSC lit up.
    Also my center screen was giving me a battery warning error as well. 20200809_141152.jpg 20200809_141200.jpg 20200809_141200.jpg
     
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  5. davecook89t

    davecook89t Senior Member

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    Well, that's progress. It's not that surprising that you are having trouble with the mini VCI cable, but have you tried the bluetooth dongle with Dr. Prius or Torque Pro? I would expect either of those programs would give you codes that are helpful, although as pointed out, subcodes would not be available. It is pretty likely the battery ECU is reporting one or more weak blocks. Dr. Prius or Torque Pro would show that information. If nothing else, those programs could let you verify that whatever the dealer tells you is accurate.

    I'm glad you didn't give up and have at least some reward for your efforts.
     
  6. davecook89t

    davecook89t Senior Member

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    I just noticed from your pictures you only have 106k miles on the car. With mileage that low, it is probably worth fixing, no matter what it needs. Most of us on this forum have many more miles on our Gen 2's. Ours currently has 287k.
     
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  7. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    When you say battery blocks do you mean the battery cells in the hybrid battery pack?
    My dealer won't install any parts I buy so if it is the hybrid it's going to cost me a bunch :( but as you say my car still has some life.
     
  8. davecook89t

    davecook89t Senior Member

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    Well, there is still some possibility that your HV battery is totally fine, but most of the members of this forum would say that is unlikely if the battery is more than 10 years old and the car has sat unused for a number of months, so here goes...

    Different people use the term "battery cells" loosely, but the Gen 2 battery is actually made up of 28 modules, each of which contain 6 cells. The cells within a module cannot be replaced, only the entire module. One block is a pair of modules. If one of the 12 cells in a particular block fails, the battery ECU will report that block as being weak. It cannot tell you which module has the failed cell, only the block number. The blocks are numbered from 1 to 14, beginning from the passenger side of the battery. If you get a code saying one of the blocks is weak, you or your mechanic will need to open up the battery and test both the modules in the weak block with a multi-meter to determine which one contains the failed cell. That module would then need to be replaced, if you want to continue to use that battery. Most people would describe that as a short-term fix. If you want to use the car for many more trouble-free years, most would advise you to buy a new battery from Toyota for $2,000 or a little less, plus several hours of labor to install it. Alternatively, you could purchase a new aftermarket battery from newpriusbatteries.com, run by a member of this forum, @2k1Toaster, for around $1,600, which should have a similarly long life.
     
  9. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    So was able to drive it to the dealership. They called after looking at it and told me that it was the 12 volt. And that once they hooked everything back up ( I forgot to put the red plastic cover on top of battery and fuses after swapping batteries). All the codes that they were getting disappeared. they said the battery had to have at least a voltage of 14 ? So 540 dollars later...Because I didn't want to bother installing the battery myself again. They told me I could come get it. Right before I was about to drive over there they called and told me while they were getting it ready for me. It wouldn't start again "as if it wasn't recognizing the key" which was one of the thoughts I had too so now I'm waiting until Monday for them to look at it again.
     
  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Leave it to a dealership to find the words "10 to 14" in the repair manual and read that as meaning "at least 14."
     
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  11. RRxing

    RRxing Senior Member

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    $540???
    Find another dealer...
     
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  12. davecook89t

    davecook89t Senior Member

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    Thanks for updating us. It's still possible this won't turn out to be a total disaster, but having an older Prius sitting in a Toyota dealer's service bay in an inoperable condition usually doesn't end well, particularly when the information they are giving you is suspect. The 12V battery will only show a voltage of 14 when the car is in Ready mode and the small battery is being charged by the big battery or if it is actually hooked up to a charger plugged into the wall. Measuring the voltage under those circumstances is meaningless. Furthermore, in your first post dated June 21st, 2020 you stated that you already replaced the 12V battery. Was the dealer aware of that? They certainly should have been, based on the manufacture date stamped on the top of the battery. This smells of incompetence or worse. And I'm betting you paid far less than $540 for the battery when you bought it elsewhere. With those facts, I think you can play a little hardball with them. You may not think you have any leverage, but you can let them know that you will give us their name and we will help drag it through the mud. We have plenty of members in SE Pennsylvania who can help spread the message. I'm seeing 5 Toyota dealers within 10 miles of the town where you live (according to your PM), so which one of them has your car?
     
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  13. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    They didn't call Monday at all. So I called them and the guy had already left and I had no updates. Left them a vm to call me first thing in the am to give me an update. Nothing. So I called again at 5 after I finished my workday and the service manager said well they are still looking into it. They have the dashboard off to check wires (he said something like point testing) because it seeems something is off with the power ecu. I asked if it was a fuse and he said no that was the first thing we checked. So he called me again and said they are closing for the day and still nothing pointing to loose wires so they aren't sure what it is. And there are no codes being thrown. It's the conicelli toyota in Conshohocken. Just to clarify I ended up installing the old battery back because like i said it didn't do anything and actually had less voltage then the optimum battery I had in there. And of course I was able to return the new battery but you are right it was only 163 dollars and it's a simple install. The battery they gave me was 240 dollars and they charged me for some diagnostics and then install. I can't imagine what this analysis they've been doing on the car is going to cost me !!!!
     
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  14. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    More info. Still had to call them every day to give me an update. They finally got back to me and said that after pin testing and finding nothing and then asking toyota they concluded it must be the certification ecu. Which communicaes with the immobilizer ecu?
    They are suggesting a replacement but bc it sits behind the heat box it will cost 1900 alone in labor , and the part could range from 500 to 1000! What the hell! I asked how they know that's it and rhey said that's the last part to get power to the car that we can't test and everything else works so it must be that. Do they expect me to still pay 540 for the battery they replaced???? If they had told me this before that work I wouldn't have gotten a new battery!!!
    Not sure what to do now. :(
     
  15. davecook89t

    davecook89t Senior Member

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    This is just a really unfortunate situation. I really thought your car would be worth saving, given that it only has 106k miles, but once you are left with replacing ECUs as a last resort, in the hope that that will solve a problem has defied diagnosis by any traditional methods, I believe that saving your car may be a lost cause. This is especially true when the ECUs are buried deep behind the dash and it seems your only possible option may be having the work done at the dealer. Even if you were to find a trustworthy independent mechanic who could do the job using salvaged parts, it would still be a major, costly undertaking.

    For the record, according to Post #2 in this thread, there is no Immobilizer ECU per se, but @Patrick Wong refers to a Transponder Key ECU. I have not been able to find a reference to a Transponder Key ECU in the Repair Manual, but the first diagram I am attaching shows the Power Source Control ECU (P6) and the Certification ECU (S11). These are both behind the driver's side of the dashboard and would certainly require considerable dashboard disassembly to be accessed. The 2nd diagram shows the Gateway ECU (G1) behind the glovebox, which would appear to be more easily accessed. Possibly some combination of these ECUs performs the Immobilization function. (Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable can comment).

    I am attaching these diagrams FYI, but at this point I would probably recommend getting whatever you can for the selling the most valuable parts of your car and moving on. The value you can realize is mainly dependent upon your availability of space to store a disabled vehicle and your patience. If you were to part it out, assuming the HV battery is in reasonable condition, it could be worth up to $1,000, a functional ABS actuator/accumulator is in high demand and would be worth a few hundred, the catalytic converter contains rare earth elements that are worth several hundred, and you have a brand new 12V battery. Alternatively, if the body and interior have been well cared for, the whole car could probably be sold for up to $1,500, even in non-running condition.

    In closing, I am sorry for your loss, I don't know what else to say. Position of Parts in Instrument Panel - 1.jpg Position of Parts in Instrument Panel - 2.jpg
     
  16. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    Hi. Yes I am very bummed and disheartened. You made a mention of a few things that lead me to believe the dealership is shady and doesn't really know what they are doing.
    If there is no immobilizer ecu and they said there was one then how can I trust them. Plus they then said the cert ecu was behind the heater box but you mention is behind the dashboard which they already had open. Did they check the power source control ecu ? I wish it were a diy.
     
  17. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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  18. Jouxse

    Jouxse New Member

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    Hello all. Figured it would be good to update this post with the latest.
    I'm driving my car!
    All was not lost.
    And connicelli toyota came through for me big time!
    They let me buy my own part and they installed it for me at no cost!!! Well it was because they charged me 542 for the battery replacement which probably wasn't needed but good to have, and the inconvenience of not calling me back and giving me updates on the status.
    The part that I had to buy was the power source control ecu. And I found it on ebay for $16.
    I was very happy when they called to tell me the part worked and that they weren't going to charge me ;)
    Thanks to every one for their help.
     
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  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    congrats!(y)
     
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  20. davecook89t

    davecook89t Senior Member

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    Thanks for coming back to us with the good news. Only another 182k miles to catch up to our car now.;)

    P.S. Kudos to Conicelli Toyota. Shouldn't forget to mention that.
     
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