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China Dumps Fuel Cell Research $$

Discussion in 'Fuel Cell Vehicles' started by hill, Sep 5, 2020.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    With Covid19 starting up last year - & the rest of the world getting it THIS year, the latest fuel cell news went on the back burner for most ;

    2020 marks end of support for fuel cell cars - Chinadaily.com.cn

    Of course, Toyota et al can continue funding the expensive program over there on their own dime. But China has somewhere in the neighborhood of 270 million cars. The fuel-cell lobby was trying to get China hydrogen cars up to 2,000 by 2020 - and even more after that. These goals never seem to get met though. Dumping the fuel cell lobby from free money means that less than one out of every 135,000 cars will ever be hydrogen over there. Feel free to calculate whatever teeny fraction that is. Still, it's worth noting that because battery-electric cars (in many instances) longer need subsidies, that seems to be the way the industry is going.
    As to whether this Tech will ever pan out or not from the same read ...


    Last decade they said it would take 10 years, like the decade before that, and the decade before that, and the decade before that. Seems they want to maybe raise that deadline to two decades now.
    .
     
    #1 hill, Sep 5, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2020
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Remember the toyota and hyundai programs are heavily subsidized in their home markets. For this reason Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda will continue their government subsidized R&D on hydrogen. Potential markets in US and China have been a promise by these corporations. If the US and china pull out, my guess is Korea and Japan may phase out subsidies too unless they actually get a breakthrough.
     
  3. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Looks like the US is doubling down

     
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  4. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Or not. From your article- "A big focus will be on research and application of key components, and support from the central government will be in the form of financial awards to these cities rather than purchase subsidies for consumers."

    Which is inline with the OP's source- "Some carmakers have become over-reliant on subsidies and thus find it difficult to compete in the global markets. And despite the financial support, China's fuel cell industry has not made breakthroughs and has not seen rapid development," said the ministry.

    "So we think the subsidies should be withdrawn as planned while nonfinancial measures can be adopted to facilitate their purchase and use, and we think local authorities can promulgate measures to stimulate efforts to build and run hydrogen stations and other infrastructure,"

    Going from direct subsidies for vehicle sales to pilot programs sounds like a step backwards. The direct subsidies ended in April, https://theicct.org/publications/china-2020-22-subsidies-new-energy-vehicles-jul2020 And while your article released later, its source for China's FCEV targets is from 2017. With the change in policy those targets are likely invalid.
     
  6. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    Toyota, Hyundai, Mercedes, Honda and GM have deep pockets, they will manage. Many cities in China are 100% for Hydrogen and are supporting the sales of cars, buses and trucks. Big money is to be made in China with the growth of Hydrogen vehicles.
     
  7. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Looks like Nicola hydrogen shares took a serious dump. Fraud in hydrogen .... no one ever wanted it to seem so poetic;

    Founder of GM electric truck partner quits amid allegations | KRQE News 13

    After GM's bankruptcy, it's not like GM needs that kind of bad PR relating to any element of financial oversight, even when it relates to a company they partner with.
    .
     
    #8 hill, Sep 21, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The optics are bad for GM, but they weren't putting anything up for risk in the deal.

    First, heavy-duty trucks aren't cars.

    Second, your article uses the same official's quote as the article @hill posted, which I directly posted above. What they are saying is that the subsidies sales have not lead to breakthroughs to lower the cars' costs nor that of stations. So they are cancelling those subsidies, and going back to supporting research and pilot programs. In the timeline of getting a new technology to the public, this is nearly starting over.

    China has little oil, but a lot of coal. Turning the coal into hydrogen lets them fuel trucks and reduce those emissions within population centers. So they have good reasons for pursuing it, but these announcements mean they have admitted that the technology still isn't ready for actual use.
     
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    This gives some better info on want China is doing.
    China rolls out fresh policies to boost hydrogen vehicle sales | Reuters

    "While previous policies to support NEV makers had offered subsidies on sales, the fresh rollout will require local governments and companies to build a more mature supply chain and business model for the industry.

    Local governments and companies need to prove their joint projects are able to lower the price of hydrogen fuel, increase the number of hydrogen-charging stations, enlarge hydrogen fuel cell vehicle fleets and improve related technologies, according to the document.

    Authorities will offer rewards to the projects after an assessment of these key performance areas, the ministry said."

    With 7000 to 4 million hydrogen to plug in vehicles, the direct subsidy method simply didn't work for hydrogen cars. They'll now fund joint projects, but only after the project can prove to advance the hydrogen and FCEV technology and market.
     
  11. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    Brand new 4 pump Hydrogen station opens up in Fountain Valley,
     
  12. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    How many cars can it fill in an hour without increasing the fill up time?

    Far cheaper to build infrastructure for limited locations like commercial airports than for private cars.
     
    hill likes this.
  14. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    An hour to fill up? Average time is 10 to 15 minutes. I think your confused with Tesla's longer time frame to charge. Tesla has a serous issue with over crowded charging stations. Not everyone can factor in a lunch, shopping spree to fill in the time as your car waits for availability to charge and then the actual charge.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    You did not comprehend the question.

    In order to make fast filling of hydrogen possible, it needs to be precompressed to a pressure higher than 10k psi and chilled to -40C. As hydrogen is moved from that fill tank to cars, more hydrogen is compressed and chilled in the fill tank. The process is not instant, and takes time. As the fill take loses pressure and heats up, filling cars takes more time. Eventually it takes as long, or longer to fill a hydrogen car as the DC charge a BEV.

    How many cars can it fill in an hour without the fill rate slowing down?

    How much did it cost?
    It can fill 240 cars with 5kg tanks in a day. How much will a hydrogen station that can handle the traffic of a gasoline station cost?
     
  16. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    How much time? Late night delivery at off peak times would solve that issue, if and when it happens.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Are you being willfully obtuse, or do you just not understand how the technology you boost for works?
     
  18. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    I understand it very well. That’s why I am defending it. As Hydrogen grows within the USA, new issues may arise. Similar to Tesla and Musks tweet today on Battery Day!
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Yet you can't or won't answer my question.

    Hydrogen filling stations are like air compressors for pneumatic tools. The compressor can't run the tools directly. It fills up a large tank to do so. When that tank runs too low to run tools, you have to wait for it to repressurize.

    That is exactly how hydrogen and fast fill CNG stations work. They prefill a tank that supplies to pumps. After so many cars, you have to wait for that tank to refill.

    How many cars can that new station fill before it has to stop and refill the tank to the pumps? Can it handle traffic at rush hour, or will people have to wait as long as charging a BEV, but they can't leave the pump, or will they plan refueling around the station's less busy times?
     
  20. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    China cutting back on Research money may very well be from understanding efficiencies best articulated in the following video. (NOT the 1ST 2 MINUTE'S it's a stupid joke - save yourself 2 minutes of wasted life - move past it) weighing the efficiencies of gas, battery, hydrogen revealed in this message - no one would ever want to hydrogen car. You might still hate electric vehicles, but you sure as heck would never want to hydrogen car.



    Bottom line - after subtracting all the lost efficiency set forth in the video, you have a vehicle that is more than 2x less efficient than an ev - and less efficient than many hybrids!

    [​IMG]
    27% efficient. That means MANY hybrids are still more efficient thea a hydrogen car. Which still emits CO2 when reforming from natural gas or coal - tattoo least expensive fuel stocks.
    It's not a question of whether electric cars for everybody. It's a question whether a hydrogen car is for anybody. Alice doesn't even discuss $15 a liter for the fuel.
    .
     
    #20 hill, Sep 22, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020