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Any way to trick the traction battery heater into running after 3 days?

Discussion in 'Prime Technical Discussion' started by m8547, Oct 25, 2020.

  1. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    Now that I'm not driving to work everyday, it's likely my Prime will sit in the driveway or my detached unheated garage some days this winter. For cars sold outside of Alaska and Canada, the traction battery heater only runs for up to 3 days. Is there any way to trick it into running longer? For example can I put a mechanical timer on the EVSE that "unplugs" it for a few minutes each day? Or do I need to go outside and physically unplug the connector from the car and plug it back in? Or do I need to use enough energy from the battery that the car charges again?

    This weekend is a good example. I plugged the car in on Friday afternoon. 3 days later is Monday afternoon. A snowstorm moved in, so I'm not planning on driving anywhere before Tuesday if I can avoid it. But Monday night (after the traction battery heater stops) is supposed to get down to 6 degrees F! I'd like to have a warm battery if I drive anywhere on Tuesday.
     
  2. schja01

    schja01 One of very few in Chicagoland

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    It seems it would be easy enough to unplug the EVSE manually and if that works put an interval timer on the supply side.
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's not the right question to ask. Think about what you are trying to achieve. Why do you feel a warm battery is necessary?

    I live in Minnesota. I know cold, proper cold. Ironically, my example comes from a trip to Wyoming to visit family over the holidays. It was definitely winter there too... -9°F ...for the duration of Christmas day. Plugging in to warm-up the battery-pack was pointless. We needed cabin-heat anyway. For us, letting the engine run while loading the car then our journey to the paved road was all it took to get enough heat for the engine to start cycling on & off.

    Remember, it's good for the engine to run from time to time, especially when sitting unused in extreme conditions. Having a cold battery simply means it has to deal with higher electrical resistance. Lithium chemistry works fine in sub-freezing conditions. No harm comes from the cold. It simply cannot charge or discharge as much then.
     
  4. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    • As the battery gets colder the EV mode range decreases. It's already not great at the temperature the battery heater keeps it at (around 32-36F).
    • As the battery temperature drops, the power output in EV mode is limited. Sometimes that causes the car to suddenly turn on the engine. Depending on the driving conditions, it might also bypass the warm up cycle if power is needed immediately (accelerating or going uphill on the highway).
    • Charging a lithium battery when the electrolyte is frozen can permanently damage it. Regen braking also counts as charging. The car should protect itself, but from what I've observed in cold weather with the hybrid Assistant app, I'm not sure I trust the car to sufficiently limit regen when the battery is cold. On one drive home from a ski trip, the battery was at around 28F. I think I saw 20kW into the battery a few times before it limited the charging power to about 1-2 kW for most of the next hour.
    • If the car does limit regen when the battery is cold, that greatly decreases efficiency.
    Its going to be something like 40 degrees on Tuesday, so I'd like to drive in EV mode. I most likely won't go to work on Tuesday either, so if I go anywhere it will be a short drive, hardly enough to really warm up the engine. The battery has so much mass that it could easily still be below freezing for a few hours after the temperature outside reaches 40F.

    And, I'm sure this is just the first time this will happen this winter. Last year I had no problems because daily driving and charging kept the battery warm, and the traction battery heater kept it warm on the weekends.
     
  5. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    First, the "heater" likely is using more energy to keep it from getting too cold than running the engine would.

    Second, cold is actually GOOD for battery longevity although there is a temporary capacity loss WHILE it remains cold.
    A conventional wet cell battery, when fully charged, won't freeze down to -40 F or below.
    I don't know about Lithium.

    I think this is yet another example of OCD.
     
  6. schja01

    schja01 One of very few in Chicagoland

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    LiIon batteries freeze at -40°C/F also. Which is close to the temperature mercury thermometers freeze. For what it’s worth.
     
    john1701a likes this.
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    This is teachable moment.

    Think about how long Toyota has been collecting real-world data.

    Think about how I drove a 2012 Prius PHV in Minnesota for 6 winters... 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 ...without any battery degradation; that generation of plug-in never had a heater for the pack.

    Think about how you should use Google more often; the lithium electrolyte freezes at about -22°F.
     
  8. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    I did use Google, but I couldn't find much definitive information. Most sources say the problem is charging below 0 degrees C, regardless of the temperature the electrolyte freezes solid.

    For example here's a paper talking about a new technology to mitigate the problem (but it came out in 2018, so Toyota probably isn't using this technology. The background information is helpful. Fast charging of lithium-ion batteries at all temperatures | PNAS

    As much as Toyota tries to make cars that are appliances that don't need any thought to drive, they are not perfect and it's still possible to cause accelerated wear or damage to your car in some situations. Maybe they have it figured out, but why risk it.

    Regardless of possible degradation to the battery, I'd like to use the car as an EV as much as possible. It is very hard to stay in EV mode when the battery temperature is below 0 degrees C. The battery heater is only around 100W, and it only runs enough to keep the battery between about 32-36 F, so that certainly uses less energy than using the ICE.

    Finally, if it doesn't matter, why do they have a different battery heater control for Alaska and Canada?
     
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    You are mixing up the vehicle's software response with what the battery is actually capable of. Turn off the electric-heater and watch what happens. Below is a demonstration with my PHV many years ago, coming from a garage that dropped to the upper teen's for temperature in those conditions.

     
  10. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    The only time a traction battery heater is needed is when you have to charge your traction battery at or below freezing temperature. If you are not going to charge the car, you don't need it. The heater will not increase the EV range or longevity of the battery. If you are not driving the car for a while, I would not leave the car fully charged. Also, keeping the charge cord plugged in after the charge is completed will deplete the 12v battery quicker. Thus both of those actions are not recommended by Toyota.

    Instead, just plug in the EVSE the night before you know you will be driving your car and use the charge schedule timer to set the time of departure. That way, if the temperature of the battery is cold, the traction battery heater will kick-in as needed.
     
    #10 Salamander_King, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020