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Whats wrong with this procedure? The HV battery is connected in series , the ECU reads in banks of 2

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Phillip Griffith, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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    I am a proud owner of a 2009 Gen 2 Prius and a 2008 Gen 2 Prius which I bought (because it was blue my wife likes) as a play toy. I got it at a good price BUT "THE TRIANGLE OF DEATH" points to the HV battery as the problem. Previous owner said he replaced cells and said the battery was good. Long story shortened to "too much oil" in engine so I cleaned it up. Now to the battery: What I know : engine will not start without HV battery / HV battery is connected in series within each cell (voltage monitoring is done in banks of 2 cells). I approached a refurbish in a different manner: Disconnected all leads to each cell / made a parallel circuit of the entire 28 cells / discharged all cells down to 1.5 volts with an standard car headlight / recharged cells using my home 6/12 volt battery charger (6volt 6 amp output side, actual voltage was 8.25 volts) this (discharged and recharged) I did 3 times. All cells read .05 volts of each other at 7.95 volts avg. / all are losing voltage after 3 days sitting at .02 volts daily connection free / about to reinstall battery in vehicle QUESTION: Is my procedure faulty?
     
  2. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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    [​IMG] would this help?
     
  3. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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    Volatage is now at 222volts reassembled overnight
     

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  4. Albert Barbuto

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    I like your unique method of exercising the pack. This prevents the weakest modules from going negative voltage, reversing polarity.

    To locate the weakest modules, monitor the pack in real time, while doing a full throttle acceleration from a dead stop. A strong pack will deliver 150 amps. Cycle the weakest modules right in the car. Module rehydration may be necessary to give a kick in the pants to stubborn modules.

    Attached pic, module #27 was replaced after test shown. Neither cycling or rehydrating helped this module.
     

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  5. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Absolutely. Google charging batteries in parallel to learn more. The voltage of a battery has little to do with it's capacity, otherwise why would I buy a 1.5 volt 'D' cell battery if I could just buy a 1.5 volt hearing aid battery or 1.5 volt AAA battery?

    It is not the voltage applied to a module that 'rejuvenates' it, it's the current that is forced through it. With 28 modules in parallel, current mostly just goes to the one of least resistance...
     
  6. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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    Thankyou for responding
     
  7. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    I agree with TMR-JWAP that the big concern with your method is that the current does not get equally split between the 28 modules.

    I am curious, how long did you let each charge cycle run?

    At this point you might as well try to start the car.
     
  8. Albert Barbuto

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    Yes, absolutely, the current is not equally split.
    Let's take two modules, a strong and weak one, connected in parallel. Apply a one amp load. At first each module is being drawn down about one half amp. As the voltage drops, current will flow to the weaker. So the stronger module "sees" a higher load, the weaker less. But both modules ARE being cycled, with a variable rate load. Log this variable rate, and do the above test to each module alone. Same result. The modules are being cycled. :)
     
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  9. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    I would really like to know the results of your experiments. Have you tried to start the car?

    The variance in module internal resistance is not significant in this set up. Look closely at how the parallel harness is made. The picture shows the pack being charged with the power supply leads connected to the module on the far right. For current to reach the second module it must pass through 5 ft of what looks like 18 ga wire and 28 crimp connections. So the first module with the direct connection has about 20 milli ohms resistance and the next one could have ten times that resistance. It's the quality of the crimped connections that's the real wild card. Every other module is being charged through a different length of wire and number of crimp connections.

    Then there is the issue of the negative delta V when NiMH is fully charged. Parallel charging can be a good way to start a fire.



    parallel.jpg
     
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  10. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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    UPDATE. On power up 3 x (with battery in car) to start, I showed 4 blue bars and immediately drops to 2 purple bars as soon as recharge begins system, shuts down as it did before. I believe I have regenerative problems but I'm putting the battery thru further load testing (individual cells) REMEMBER IM LEARNING AND ITS A PLAY TOY. The batteries all are about the same voltage both in each cell and bank. So the system I am using will charge the batteries with a question mark in my mind. The engine will not stay running even in heat mode once it starts and it does start , 3 different scanners get no codes, 2 were by Pro mechanic shops $75. each house call . The parallels charging wire is continuous in the ring connectors. The batteries are numbered backwards from the previous owner this Im aware of. Black charging led is on the negative terminal of the cell. The positive side is connected to the inside contactor, (which in a video that I watched ,that should be the negative contactor) and the negative wire from the #28 cell ( in the picture actually suppose to be #1) goes thru the amp block at the outside contactor. Something doesn't seem right here. I do not recommend my procedure but I have and continue to work in a safe manner. If I have to replace the battery in part or whole i have intended to buy a new one anyway. My wife likes BLUE. Thankyou for your answers Im learning. Final statement: After 3 failed start attempts and removal the battery pack voltage is down to 209 volts ( too low for another start attempt.)
     
    #10 Phillip Griffith, Nov 28, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2020
  11. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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    edthefox stated in another thread it may be the ground for the incoming cables, which mine are cut by the previous owner. So here is my game plan. Recharge as I once did (putting the charging leads in the middle of the pack of cells(opposite end) instead of the end ) to help reduce resistance toward each cell. Reinstall battery , make cable connections , repair cut incoming cable's ground. I will update my results in few days , work is taking me away from this project.
     
  12. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    I think the real problem is the gas engine is not running. It's easy to get fooled by the electric motors spinning the engine for a few seconds and then stopping.

    Clean the MAF sensor!

    I'll ask again. How long did your charge cycles run for?
     
  13. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    Are you continuously disconnecting the 12v, which would clear the codes before scanning?

    The OBD2 scanners being used aren't fully hybrid compatible. It would be economically prudent to just get a 'mini-vci' cable ($20) and use techstream (dealer tech software) on a windows device, then you will be able to retrieve the codes at anytime for less cost.
    Can you please post an image of what was cut? (use 'copy and paste' in your posting, copy is control-C and then paste is control-V)
     
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  14. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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  15. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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    picture in my album , im having trouble doing control c & v
     
  16. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    Click on the "Upload a File" button and then select the picture in your album.
     
  17. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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  18. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    That ground strap is not keeping your car from starting. The half that's showing in your picture is installed upside down. The HV cables have a braided shield mutch like a coaxial cable. The chrome strap grounds this outer braiding. The braiding does not carry any current. The only two reasons I can think of for this ground is radio interference or a fail safe if the cables were to be damaged in an accident.

    At the risk of breaking your good Prius you could try swapping the batteries between your two Prius. I think you will find the problem is not the battery but is the engine in your project car.

    So, How many hours did you let the charge cycles run for?
     
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  19. Phillip Griffith

    Phillip Griffith Junior Member

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    First, the chrome strap; The strap is installed correctly ; its just an optical illusion that its up side down if that's what you mean but the purpose of it was my thought also but being new to this ,anything goes in my case. Second question that you asked, discharged with headlight; it burned 4-5 hours , recharged 8 hours or there about. Today discharged 5 hrs , recharging now , 1/2 way and still charging / 3 hrs. As far as using my good Prius battery ; I don't wish to do that ; both cars have 159,000 miles just wont chance kicking a badger. The ICE seems to be the problem but it does start (exhaust gets a temp increase) shuts off with a shudder.
     
  20. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    If Techstream isn't in your future, then maybe an OBD2 bluetooth adapter with an App like Dr Prius or Torque would be helpful :whistle:
     
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