1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Toyota oil burn theory

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Isaac Zachary, Feb 7, 2021.

  1. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    1,728
    833
    1
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Let's face it. Toyotas are great vehicles, but you often hear of how older models become terrible oil burners. Here's what I've at least heard. (Disclaimer. I know nothing, but sure can google stuff.)

    The problem
    piston rings.jpg
    Let's first talk about the problem. Although there are many ways in which an engine can start to burn oil, most Toyota engines burn oil because of clogged oil control rings. The oil control rings are a mesh of sorts that are supposed to soak up oil as the pistons move down the cylinder (intake and combustion strokes). And as the piston moves up (compression and exhaust strokes) they are supposed to let some oil back onto the cylinder walls. That way the pistons and compression rings always have a thin film of oil to ride on. However the oil control rings will always pick up more oil than they need. For this reason there exist holes and sometimes grooves, called "oil relief holes (or grooves)" that do just that. They relieve the oil control rings of the extra oil and allow it to pass back down into the crank case below the pistons.

    But what happens is that over time the oil control rings and oil relief holes (and/or grooves) can get clogged up, not allowing excess oil to flow back down into the crank case. And since it can't go anywhere else, the excess oil now passes up past the compression rings into the combustion chamber where it, well, combusts and hence the Toyota engine is now burning oil.

    Of course the severity can differ from case to case. Some engines aren't clogged enough to make much of a difference at low RPM's when oil has more time to seep into the restricted holes, but can become real oil burners at high RPM's when the speed at which the oil needs to flow back is to much for the partially clogged holes. And other engines become completely clogged which causes them to burn oil constantly.

    The cause
    But what causes the oil control rings and relief holes (and/or grooves) to clog up like that in the first place? Well it seems to be a combination of 4 things, which if you can fix one of them might prevent the whole problem in the first place.

    1. Small oil relief holes. Many Toyota engines are designed to use low viscosity oils which would tend to flow back quickly into the engine. Because of this Toyota is careful in not making the oil relief holes (and grooves) too big since that could let too much oil to flow back necessitating a thicker oil to keep the oil control rings properly soaked. But during cold starts, or for those using a thicker oil, the oil doesn't flow back through those small holes enough to wash out the sludge. And as a result, sludge will tend to build up.
    2. Infrequent oil changes. As oil wears out it loses its detergent properties that help wash out the sludge and it also ends up containing more contaminates. All this, plus frequent cold starts, cause the oil to leave deposits in places where it doesn't flow much, like in the oil control rings and oil relief holes. Now a lot of people will point out that the owner's manual says that they can go for a whole year or 10,000 miles before changing their oil. What they don't understand is that applies only to people who long haul their vehicle for hundreds of miles a day cruising on the highway, since most of the miles with those kinds of driving conditions are with the engine fully warmed up and the oil flowing properly, washing out sludge as it does so. The year long oil change does not apply to the rest of us that use our cars to go to and from work, school, the store and other places where every dozen miles or so we're shutting the engine off, letting it cool back down to ambient temperature, and then cold starting it all over again.
    3. Wrong oil. As mentioned before, messing with the oil thickness can cause it to not flow properly through the oil control rings and oil relief holes and/or grooves. But there's also the possibility of it not containing the right additives. When there's not enough of the right detergents and other additives the oil may not be able to wash away sludge from the oil control rings properly. Now, many people will swear by this oil or that oil as being the best, but the best oil is the oil recommended by Toyota. When asked about the type of oil to use, Toyota's response is,
      Of course the response was in relation to cars that use 0W-20, but the same principle applies to other vehicles that use other grades of oil. The best oil is Toyota oil since it has a specific additive package for Toyota engines. The next runner up for many engines is ILSAC certified oil. Other certifications are also helpful depending on your region. For an example, API oil certified as SN is another example. Now yes, a lot of people will say that using thicker oils, high mileage oils, diesel oils, high zinc oils and the like can help reduce certain engine problems once they start. But just keep in mind that using these oils is a stop gap measure to help extend the time before needing an engine overhaul and they should be considered a last resort only when there is an actual problem.
    4. Low tension compression rings. Another part of the problem is the use of low tension compression rings. Toyota is also known for their efficient engines, and part of this efficiency is due to low tension compression rings. The less pressure that pushes the compression rings against the cylinder walls the less friction there is and hence the more efficient the engine is. But low tension rings also don't have as much force to help keep excess oil from passing them. This is also another part of the problem as to why the oil will tend to force its way past the compression rings instead of forcing itself in through the oil control rings and relief holes (and/or grooves).
    The solution
    1. Change your oil often. If you don't have an oil burning problem yet, the best thing you can do is just change your oil often. Go by the most frequent oil change numbers in your manual. And always do what comes first. For an example if the manual says every 5,000 miles or 6 months, do what comes first. Don't wait all year just because you drive only 5,000 miles a year.
    2. Use the right oil and oil filters. Don't cheap out. Don't go by what uncle Dwain thinks. Use only Toyota filters from the dealer or parts.toyota.com (watch out for counterfeit parts on eBay and Amazon) and use the oil recommended in the owner's manual and avoid any oil grade not on your oil cap and any of those "high mileage" or similar oils unless you already have a problem that needs to be bandaided for the present.
    But what if you already have an oil burning problem. Well, doing what's said above may help. but may not fix the problem once it's there. Some have had a certain amount of success by taking the spark plugs out and squirting some sort of solvent down on top of the pistons. Of course there are a lot of risks in doing this such as hydro-locking your engine, damaging the cylinder walls or causing a fire.

    Others have resorted to using a thicker oil or high detergent oil like a diesel oil. Again, this is to try to reduce the effects of a problem already there and isn't recommended to use as a preventative mesure.

    But the best way, although the most expensive, is to have the oil control rings replaced, usually along with another set of pistons and compression rings, and then following through with frequent oil changes using the right oil and filters. Doing so also gives you (or the mechanic) the chance to see how the cylinder walls have held up under the condition of clogged oil control rings as well as a look at how rods and rod bearings are holding up.

    I've also heard of people who drill out and enlarge the oil relief holes and grooves. Others put on higher tension compression rings. But these measures really aren't necessary, not to mention they can cause other unwanted side effects (like lower fuel mileage or needing a different oil viscosity than the rest of the engine.)
     
    #1 Isaac Zachary, Feb 7, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2021
  2. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,673
    6,492
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I think that the above post has some good points, but remember....most men will get prostrate cancer...if they don't die from something else first.
    Despite automotive trends that are veering well away from sedans, Priuses remain some of the longest in-service vehicles on the road.
    Part of the reason for this is the fact that their customers are either environmentally or economically incentivized to drive them......
    ....for a loooooong time.

    I think that the long Oil Change Interval (OCI) is a lot of the problem.
    My company had a dalliance with hippie vehicles around the last time we elected a certain flavor of President, BUT....as stingy as they famously are with overhead spending...they maintain a strict 5,000 mile OCI with all fleet vehicles, and they always used 5w30 for all cars (over my initial protestations.) Nobody at the garage has ever heard of one of our Priuses popping a head gasket, or getting the flickering lamp of shame. We don't have any G4s that I know about - but this may change with our current administration.
    I've read where many of our overseas Prius friends have differing viscosity recommendations for this same car and my own owners manual mentions other viscosities.
    This informs me that as long as you're in the safe operating envelope for your driving conditions, you can use any of the viscosities recommended by the MOM.
    Many Prius owners maintain a closed-hood maintenance philosophy....including many of OUR fleet drivers.
    You can expect fewer oil related problems if you're driving low on oil....for half the time.
    Priuses also have an inadequate oil supply.
    My GMC has an engine that's 20% smaller and an oil sump that's probably 20-percent larger...with a roughly 7500 mile OCI for the oil life monitoring system.
    Me?
    I use 5,000 miles. Sometimes less.
    Always have.
    For the last few decades I keep cars for about 200,000 miles, and my next oil related failure will be my first.
    My oldest vehicle (06 GMC) is starting to burn a noticeable amount of oil at just shy of 200,000 miles.
    About a quart.
    My others have 150,000, 130,000, and 25,000 with no measurable burn rate per 5,000 miles.

    @oil detergents.
    They're important....but as long as you meet industry norms for gas burners (starburst symbol), Walmart's oil is just as good as the Gucci brands.
    Fleet operators use bulk oil.
    Individual owners (who don't have to make a profit while driving vehicles) get into all of these zany 'oil wars' and the really funny thing is that most of these drivers are "automotive enthusiasts" who rarely keep their vehicles much past 150,000 miles.
    See also: "Top Tier Gas."

    The Toyota Oil Burn Theory isn't a theory, nor is it limited to Toyotas.
    If you're fortunate (or unfortunate.....YMMV) enough to live where a VET is somebody who works on fixing animals, instead of a Vehicle Emissions Tester then you know that all vehicles burn oil, and MOST vehicles with over 150,000 miles burn a LOT of oil.....which is why used car lots are on every other street corner in places without strict emissions testing.

    ALL high mileage cars burn oil.
    Toyota merely builds more cars that are more likely on average to still be in service after 150,000 miles.
    Maybe even enough to clog catalytic converters...for CERTAIN models.... :unsure:
     
    #2 ETC(SS), Feb 7, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2021
  3. Steph1972

    Steph1972 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    65
    48
    0
    Location:
    St Adolphe D’Howard
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Four Touring
    Very interesting post , I agree that regular oil change and quality filter is the key , I live in Canada where the winters are tough ,got a 2014 Prius 4 with 160000km , always do oil change every 10000km with oem filters, and the engine is not burning any oil between changes , I checked the EGR pipe and it’s a bit dirty but not even close to clog like pics I’ve seen on other posts .... I don’t think that the couple of dollars you save by buying cheap oil and filter is a good investment....
     
  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,270
    15,068
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    At the same time, there seems to be wide variation in the amount of burning reported here by owners of different similarly-high-mileage Prii ... wide enough that owners could be forgiven for taking an interest in what factors might account for it.
     
    Isaac Zachary and Steph1972 like this.
  5. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    1,728
    833
    1
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    OIl type is for the most part a lot less important than oil change frequency IMO. And yes, I actually was referring to the starburst symbol when I mentioned the API-SN rating. But I'm not so sure the starburst symbol is internationally used since I do believe it's part of the American Petroleum Institute (API). This is why Toyota mentions the ILSAC rating, which is international. Still, it's better to have fresh oil of a slightly different grade or oil rating (sm or sl for an example) and change it regularly than to get something like Genuine Toyota Motor Oil at the recommended grade on the oil cap and wait a year or two between oil changes.

    However one thing to keep in mind about those different grades Toyota will at times approve for use in their vehicles are a lot of times ambient temperature dependent. For an example, even in the USA many owner's manuals will usually mention somewhere the possibility of using a lower grade oil in colder climates.

    As to the observation that most cars with 150,000 or more miles are oil burners, it's also true that most people nowadays do not change their oil regularly and many don't use the oil recommended by the manufacturer either.
     
  6. Elektroingenieur

    Elektroingenieur Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    2,515
    3,253
    9
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three Touring
    It’s always interesting to hear what large fleet owners do, especially those that keep the vehicles for long enough to see the results. In your particular employer’s case, though, I have to wonder if someone is still waiting patiently for the next issue of a study that was last updated in 1983 . . .
    It is international: API’s EOLCS directory (described, along with the ILSAC standards, in my previous posting) lists many engine oils that are manufactured and sold outside the United States.
     
    Isaac Zachary likes this.
  7. Aaron Vitolins

    Aaron Vitolins Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    1,612
    1,144
    0
    Location:
    Franklin TN
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I think the OP is spot on with these observations. Good quality oil, and frequent oil changes are key to keeping these engines clean, and running well.

    Surprisingly my old 2004 with 228k doesn’t burn any oil. It’s the only high mileage Prius we’ve had in the family that didn’t burn oil. I remember reading a few other members claim theirs didn’t burn oil and I was skeptical! Now it’s me making that “wild” claim :)

    Synthetic oil every 5k.
     
    Isaac Zachary likes this.
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,662
    38,207
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Toyota’s fix for excessive oil consumption on the 3rd gen (TSB169) is to replace both the rings and pistons, all of which have revised part numbers (they’re different).

    I’m not sure what the differences are, or if Toyota has an explanation, but the “prevailing” notion seems to be that the new rings are higher tension (press against cylinder walls stronger) and the new pistons mainly have revised grooves to accommodate the new rings.
     
    Aaron Vitolins and Isaac Zachary like this.
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,270
    15,068
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    It's extra work for people to look up TSBs if they're referred to by incomplete numbers or oddly spelled.

    T-SB-0169-16, now that's easy to find.
     
    Isaac Zachary and Mendel Leisk like this.
  10. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,662
    38,207
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    On a phone, and a bit challenged. Thanks.
     
  11. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    1,728
    833
    1
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I've seen that there have been similar recalls or TSBs for other Toyota cars. I'm not sure what the fix is. On one YouTube video it looks like the new pistons on a Camry had the oil relief grooves removed, which seems counterintuitive since less places for the oil to flow back should, in theory, make matters worse. But maybe it did have higher tension rings that made up for the difference.

    I wish there were one of these for the Gen 2 Prius. I'm contemplating doing this to the 2006 Prius I picked up since it's an oil burner.
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,693
    48,945
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    does the average high mileage 15 y.o. car not burn oil?
     
  13. tacopyro

    tacopyro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2018
    82
    41
    2
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    II
    i'd like to add one observation that so far i havent heard of yet.

    i dont know whats its called but i noticed that when i was upgrading the piston rings on my gen3s, the cylinder walls were coated with a thick film of something. you can still see the hones but they are effectively coated over. So while the piston rings are probably part of the issue of oil burning, the other i believe are the coating over of the cylinder wall hones.

    Most of the write ups thus far have been on cleaning the piston rings, their gaps and holes and such thru soaks, oil flushes, etc.
    I think one should also think of cleaning the cylinder walls to expose the hones so both can work synergistically as designed.

    in my case, since i replaced the rings. i would rehone the walls and that cleans up the film and so far we havent had any oil consumption altho its only been 6k mi.

    I do have a 08 thats consuming 1qt per 1k that i havent rebuilt yet and am starting to expertiment with.
     
    Aaron Vitolins and Mendel Leisk like this.
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,270
    15,068
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    I had my Gen 1 to year 16, 234,000-ish miles, and it lost negligible oil.
     
  15. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,270
    15,068
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    The T-SB-0169-16 is adamant (in boldface) to NOT hone the cylinders though. It just says to check the walls and make sure the cross hatching is still visible and there are no serious vertical scratches ... and otherwise replace the block.

    It doesn't go into an explanation of why it says that ... but the spiny liners are very thin, and not replaceable.

    Maybe some kind of solvent to get the varnish, or whatever, off?
     
    Isaac Zachary likes this.
  16. tacopyro

    tacopyro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2018
    82
    41
    2
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Thank You ChapmanF, Too late tho for my gen3s. But the hone i did is pretty light. They call it a deglaze hone. i used a flexhone and you can tell the difference from where the film was. Also, since it worked for Danlatu, i estimate it would be safe enough to try. also, i was using the 2zrfe rings, not fxe. so i had to rehone a little to make sure it establishes a good seal.

    For my gen2 i been researching solvents and additives and there is just so many things to try out there and one can spend a lot of time and money trying them. but the most effective and straightforward recommendation so far is to tear it apart and do a deglaze hone. i have other engines to do in the meantime so i'll keep experimenting until i have time to rebuild my gen2.

    as an aside, so far i have spent maybe 500 on solvents and additives and they work for a short while. but it always comes back in a couple of thousand miles or less plus all the time i spent checking and checking the oil (2 yrs and counting). on the other hand, i could rering and deglaze hone the engine for 500 myself in 2 wks or 6 weekends and it should be good for a few years. (i hope!)

    cheers!
     
    Isaac Zachary likes this.
  17. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    1,728
    833
    1
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I had a 30-year-old car with over 400,000 miles on the engine that did not burn oil. It used only about half a quart every 5,000 miles at most. It was a 1985 VW Golf non-turbo diesel. The person I sold it to still has it and it still runs the same without any oil burning issues.
     
    Mendel Leisk and Classic Car Guy like this.
  18. Classic Car Guy

    Classic Car Guy Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2018
    385
    112
    0
    Location:
    Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Those are good cars especially if taken care of. I have a friend that owns an 84 rabbit diesel, I couldn't believe how fast that car was on the highway. we were running 75 and car still goes.
    I might switch higher oil weight in my 07. Its a bit pass 150k now. Hardly burning oil. 150 is 150...
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,712
    11,314
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    I remember reading about engine manufacturers using new technologies(hones, materials, etc.) several years back to improve the friction between cylinder and piston. Like sanitary stainless, it probably doesn't take much to ruin it.
     
    Isaac Zachary likes this.
  20. Classic Car Guy

    Classic Car Guy Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2018
    385
    112
    0
    Location:
    Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II
    There was a treatment we use back in the 80's they call it motor flush by gunk. We use to apply that in the oil, run it for 15 minutes then drain. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. I wont use it al the time. II don't know if they still sell that but it was discontinued somewhere in the late 90's and so as a lot of good car treatments. The carb and choke cleaner they use to day is a total waste of money. The one they make along time ago called carb medic was the best. Oops just found one. This make your carb and throttle body like brand spanking new. I don't know about the new one.
    [​IMG]
    There was a car that was parked for 16 years and piston was locked. I spent about 4 cans of wd-40 a can of mistery oil, and 2 oil and filter change. soaking the cylinder for 3 days. Luckily that car resurrected fine.
     
    #20 Classic Car Guy, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
    Isaac Zachary likes this.