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Featured Solid-state battery wars

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Gokhan, Jan 16, 2021.

  1. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Current state of the art battery cells with liquid electrolyte, as in the tesla battery packs seem to do fine, even though the cells themselves only operate and perform well in in a smaller temperature range. The pack is good for automotive as it utilizes liquid conditioning to keep the pack in that temperature range. When parked outside in extreme heat or cold though they do consume energy to stay in the proper range.

    Traditional engines do not operate well at low temperatures either. It is relatively simple to heat the pack, and all of the solid state cell designs that are currently available including quantumScape's design are going to require heating when the pack gets too cold. 290 psi is less than 20 atmospheres which is quite easy to build in a pack. Hydrogen tanks can be kept at 700 atmospheres a much more expensive proposition.

    What does it all mean? Well solid safe seem safe but not ideal at high temperatures (automotive high is 105 C) which means they will not need cooling to stay safe but may use a fan to maintain optimal temperature. I set my tesla to keep the battery cool it it gets too hot while parked, but this vampire drain won't be needed. To charge fast and use battery power in cold conditions, even the quantumScape's batteries will need to be heated. Still even on the tesla model 3 vampire drain is very small (it was higher before tesla changed the chemistry of the batteries and software to condition), a user reported it dropped from 75% to 72.2% after sitting where it needed to be conditioned for 2 weeks. I don't think users will find that a problem, since most will be able to park inside or plugged in when not in use for long periods of time. The sentry mode drains it much faster though (actively recording cameras and communicating) which I find I need to turn off if its parked outside for long.

    French company Ballore started putting solid state batteries in cars in 2011. In 2012 though the batteries had worse energy density (kwh/kg) and cost (euros/kwh) than tesla's battery packs. Recently they switched from cars to busses. They also are using solid state for energy storage. I have no idea on the current key metrics energy density(kwh/kg) and cost ($ or euro/kwh) but obviously if they have their batteries running around in vehicles then quantumScape is not the only one that can build.
    Electricity storage and systems - Bolloré
    More than 100 Bluebus electric buses ordered in Paris (with LMP batteries)

    I am confused by the term all solid state versus solid state battery. To me the keys are those metrics - energy density (kwh/kg), cost, and reliability. To me a solid state battery is one that has solid electrodes and a solid electrolyte. For some applications like smart phones and pace makers energy energy density in terms of volume (kwh/kg) are also important. QuantumScape admits that their solid state batteries will be higher cost in the near term (2025). Its only when the costs get competitive or significantly beter energy density is produced that they can get a viable share of the market. If an electrode is pure lithium or sodium and their is a solid electrolyte (whether polymer, ceramic, sulfide, or glass) it should be cheaper to recycle and use less of the alkali metal.
     
    #81 austingreen, Mar 2, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    My point is that we don't have an independent review of QuantumSpace's statements. Like Solid power's ones about being able to use existing battery manufacturing lines, we really can't say if they are true until the companies are making product. large scale corporate fraud isn't anything new.
     
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  3. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    It's the same problem everyone has been having for decades and only QuantumScape has found a solution for. Their batteries require high temperatures (70 °C) and have other compromises. They are not suitable for mainstream EVs. When the QuantumScape CEO says only we have a viable all-solid-state-battery (ASSB) and everyone else is 20 years behind, he is saying the truth.

    http://ease-storage.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/EASE_TD_Electrochemical_LMP.pdf
     
  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    No he's not. It would be surprising if they were ahead at all, let alone by two decades.
     
  5. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Sion power's technology seems to be pretty interesting.

    http://sionpower.com/files/IB_Li-S2Licerion.pdf

    "With the patented protected lithium anode (PLA) technology, the lithium metal anode is physically protected by a thin, chemically stable, and ionically conductive ceramic polymer barrier. At the cell-level, electrolyte additives chemically stabilize the anode surface to enhance cycle life and increase energy. The cells do use a liquid electrolyte; however, the amount is negligible compared to traditional Li-ion cells."

    So, almost solid-state? And using a ceramic polymer barrier.

    A reason this is interesting:

    Sion Power Announces Licerion-EV Targeting Electric Vehicles with a Large Format 17 Ah, 400 Wh/kg Cell

    Targeting Electric Vehicles with a Large Format 17 Ah, 400 Wh/kg Cell

    Cycle and charge/discharge performance on a smaller version:

    Key Electric Vehicle (EV) Battery Performance Requirements

    800 full depth of discharge cycles to 70% capacity charging in 90 minutes and discharging in 23 minutes.
    [​IMG]

    Notably, "Charge times of 15 minutes to 100% state of charge were repeatedly demonstrated with 99.7% efficiency."

    They have a high-energy version too:

    Licerion-HE Technology; Impressive Performance in HAPS Application

    "Sion Power®, the technology leader in high-energy, lithium-metal rechargeable batteries, announces the demonstration of its Licerion® High Energy (HE) technology with 500 Wh/kg and 1000 Wh/L."
     
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  6. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Did they say anything about the temperature and pressure required? 70% capacity retention in 850 cycles fall below the industry standard of 80%. I believe QuantumScape is currently at 90% in 2,000 cycles at 60-minute charge and discharge.
     
  7. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    I question if they even have a prototype in a lab

    maybe a squiggle on a paper napkin
     
  8. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    It's self-pressurized and room-temperature, and you have to realize that 70% of 400Wh/kg is a lot more than 80% of 300Wh/kg, plus if they ran it at 300Wh/kg, it would likely have many thousands of cycles since that's only 75% of its range.
     
  9. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    I've found better information in this presentation made to NASA.

    https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/11.-Sion-Power.pdf

    Their solid-state separator is a polymer/ceramic composite. Here is QuantumScape's take on composite solid-state separators from their Solid-state landscape presentation:

    • Composites: Some groups have worked on composites consisting of polymers and ceramics, in hopes that they could capture the “best of both worlds”—the ease of working with polymers with the hardness of ceramics. Unfortunately, such approaches end up instead with the “worst of both worlds,” resulting in an unstable material that fails to prevent dendrites, as dendrites appear to grow through the interface between the two materials.

    They are also using a partly liquid electrolyte. Here is QuantumScape's take on that from the same presentation:

    • Liquids: Some groups continued to work on conventional liquid electrolytes, but these efforts are still challenged by the twin problems of dendrite formation and impedance growth from the chemical side-reaction between the liquid and the lithium metal. One famous such effort was the Canadian company, Moli Energy, led by Jeff Dahn, now at Dalhousie University in Halifax, Canada, and one of the premier battery researchers in the world. Moli shipped lithium-metal batteries with liquid electrolytes thinking dendrites were not an issue, only to find mobile phones with their batteries were catching fire, resulting in the demise of the company. Dahn has since become a leading researcher in conventional liquid electrolyte-based lithium-ion batteries.

    To me it sounds like Sion Power's solid-state lithium-metal battery will fall short of improving over the conventional lithium-ion battery in EV applications. EV applications have many demands, and even if one single property doesn't meet the standards, the proposed battery is useless. So far, QuantumScape is the only company who is able to keep every property under control so that the battery can be used in practical EV applications. Sion and other companies are falling short on key requirements, such as cycle life at low temperatures, high charge rates, etc., which is where things stood a decade ago and what has prevented the adoptability of solid-state batteries in EVs to date.
     
  10. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    QuantumScape's opinion of their competition is not particularly interesting or credible since these batteries both exist and have been tested. If dendrite formation weren't under control it wouldn't have lasted nearly a thousand cycles at 100% DOD, and they also have higher specific energy than the batteries from QuantumScape. As for high charge rates, 100% in 15 minutes sounds pretty good.
     
  11. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Sion Power's cells' cycle lives are so–so and probably not acceptable at fast-charging rates (4C = 15 minutes)—about 600 cycles with slow charging and 300 cycles with one fast-charging cycle out of four charging cycles. Their cells are between pressure plates held by screws—I don't know how much they add to the weight. Their previous project was lithium–sulfur battery, and they have given up on that due to poor cycle life. I doubt they will be able to bring the cycle lives for their solid-state batteries to an acceptable level. As I said, many other companies are trying to develop solid-state batteries, but they are all short of reaching acceptable cycle lives under all desired conditions such as fast charging, low temperatures, etc. QuantumScape is the sole serious contender at present.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Based on what QuantumScape says and is willing to show of their work.
     
  13. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    You must be a shill or a stock holder or something to be this irrationally exuberant.
     
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  14. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

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    That was my thought too. I even looked up their stock... it's not doing too badly, Issued at $10, jumping up and down a lot around the $50 mark. Peaked in December and then fell rapidly.

    What made me think that Gokhan has a stake is the repeated assertions that everyone else has to use Quantumscape's metrics in order to be successful.

    Dan
     
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  15. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Sort of backwards thinking here. When you file a patent you are exposing your "secrets." If you want to protect a trade secret you do not file a patent, but rather keep it a secret like the formula of Coke.
    Once you have a patent, you can license it. You can also observe who might be using your patented (non-secret) technology and sue them for infringement if they don't agree to a license.


    As I said above, having a patent doesn't automatically protect anyone. It gives you leverage in a lawsuit.
    But a complex technology can have many layers of innovations and a competitor can sometimes easily work around a patent or add an additional improvement that is superior to the original, thus requiring each company to need a patent cross-licensing agreement for both to stay relevant. Notice all the patent cross-licensing agreements in place in the computer chip business.

    Mike
     
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  16. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Do you have any idea why solid-state batteries haven't been practical despite intense research since the 1980s? There is no guarantee even QuantumScape will be able to successful and market them, but so far, they are the only ones who have realized a breakthrough battery that overcomes the plaguing problems of solid-state batteries.

    When Sion Power comes forward and says that they have a solid-state battery but it can only live 50 cycles with quick charging, you know that it will never see the light of the day. If there was any chance it could, Sion Power would have gone public like QuantumScape.
     
  17. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    There go the solid-state-battery-powered buses.

    Mercedes-Benz eCitaro Buses With Solid-State Batteries Recalled
     
  18. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    QuantumScape has just updated their "Solid-state battery landscape" article, and they have a comparison table of the batteries by all solid-sate battery contenders now.

    [​IMG]

    You can clearly see that QuantumScape is currently the only one that claims to meet all performance requirements.

    Solid-State Battery Landscape - QuantumScape
     
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  19. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    It looks like ProLogium has made good progress on their solid-state batteries (SSBs), and they will market some product later this year. It's not clear whether it's an all solid-state battery (ASSB) with a lithium-metal anode, but it doesn't look like it.

    I think their limitations will be short cycle life at fast charging (see Page 15 in the brochure) and high cost. It also doesn't look like they can take high discharge currents in EV applications with a decent cycle life, seriously questioning their practical use in EVs. They may be good for drones etc.

    ProLogium brochure
     
  20. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    We can see clearly QS is currently comparing to others marketing/info leaks. The actual states of development are not known, for all companies listed.

    Other fact is "Toyota", which is a manufacturer… That makes it a serious contender because the operational requirements will be top listed regarding fabrication, costs and reliability.
     
    #100 telmo744, Mar 11, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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