Featured Here’s Why The 2021 Toyota Prius Has Become An Undesirable Electrified Car

I appreciate your interest but I want accidents/mile by make and model.

A synthetic analysis was abused in 2009 to claim we need noise for the blind. I can’t reply without spitting.

Bob Wilson

 

Yes they have large NiMH supply lines and capability around NiMH so that would be a big factor.

The PHEV may cost $3,200 and at retail that will be $6,000 more and so that's a fair bit more expensive.

The Dynamic Force engines have 40% efficiency over a wide range of revs and the benefits are realised for hybrids and non hybrids. We don't know where they are at with the 45% engines, but they would not be doing that for the peak ... its all about high efficiency over the commonly usable rev range. Yes Hybrid will make better use of that and in 5 years I would say hybrid will be 60% of Toyota sales at least. The other design goal is to keep the price increase to a minimum.

 

It’s a fait accompli but, I think the expression should be:

I couldn’t care less…

think about it; you’re saying I care so little that i could not care any less.

unless…

 

The Prius Prime is priced around $3500 to $1200 more than the Prius, with the gap being less on the higher trims. That's with a 8.8kWh pack. A 12kWh one should increase that price difference by maybe a $1000.

The Rav4 Prime pack is over 18kWh, and Toyota doesn't seem to have enough Li-ion supply lined up for them. They aren't getting the best price for the packs, but they also can charge a premium for it being a SUV.

 

I miss Joe Isuzu, too ....

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Ok smarty pants...haha.

 

OK not as much extra as I thought ... so L Eco is $24,525 & Prime is $28,220 or $3,700 extra ... and for that you get an extra 7.5 kWh of Li-Ion battery. I would assume they will be able to go to 12 kWh in the Gen 5.

 

I notice a few mentioning turbo charging, but that doesn't go well with the intermittent ICE running that is so common with hybrid vehicles. The turbo needs to warm up before being spun at the high rpm required and cool down time once it has been running hard, they don't last very long if you ignore these requirements.
An electric driven forced induction would improve volumetric efficiency, but I doubt it would improve fuel economy.
Things like ceramic coated pistons and valves certainly improve fuel efficiency because they reduce the loss of combustion heat to the cooling system, an exhaust driven turbine driving at the flywheel or even driving a small genset would re cope some of the heat energy lost to the exhaust, but I can't see the value there for investment. Like it or not, the hybrid will morph into a BEV with a range extender option where fuel economy is no longer mentioned because it isn't part of the drive system.

T1 Terry

 

Just putting this out there, but a turbine is in excess of 70% efficient. What if say gen1 was driven by a turbine when required but otherwise free wheels with no fuel supplied so the losses suffered by spinning an ICE is no longer a factor? With good computer control on the fuel feed practically any fuel can be burnt in a turbine, even diesel if it's preheated and fed in as virtually a vapour.

Then the hydrogen people could have their preferred fuel, the diesel people could have their preferred fuel, LNG, LPG, cheap low grade petrol, kero, reject jet fuel ..... a cutting edge hybrid that runs on tomorrows fuels ....... but is primarily a BEV but no range anxiety ...... Like the Prius, out there ahead of the pack

T1 Terry

 

The SAE paper notes a small turbo charger is used at low speeds to achieve lean boost and on the Atkinson cycle test engine. There is no mention of turbo heat management and they did not use ceramic valves/pistons.

 

This is a case where an electronic supercharger makes sense. The motor can spin it up and maintain a given manifold pressure. Better still, it if was a motor-generator supercharger so when the engine runs, the 'free' exhaust energy handles the car electrical load.

Bob Wilson

 

You guys really think the Prius isn't 'fast enough'..eh? It seems fine to me...but I'm not street racing, etc...I guess.

 

You wouldn't say that if you had ever been on the northbound France Ave to eastbound Crosstown highway 'access' ramp

 

Yes that is a very interesting concept ... making the turbo with electric assist so that manifold pressure can be precisely controlled and when there is too much pressure, allowing it operate as a generator instead of using a waste-gate. Maybe you should patent that or maybe Toyota already has.

 

I agree ... and overtaking in a vehicle with modest performance requires skill which is rewarding. However some people look at hybrids and see them as slow. Toyota recognises that with vehicles like the RAV4 Prime and with PHEV's and innovations like the bi-polar NiMH, I think Toyota can provide hybrids with better performance, at least as an option.

 

I grew up in the twin cities...and am up there quite frequently. I know where you are talking about. The problem isn't acceleration...but the fact that knuckleheads don't let folks in like they should.

 

My father drove a 40’ diesel pusher motor home with trailer for crafting, there were never problems merging, he would enter slowly and merge

Didn’t care what objects were there, merge slowly and the objects got out of the way

 

- Electric supercharger -with intercooler can increase efficiency slightly as shown by miller cycle. Its better to think of it as a way to downsize an engine and reduce frictional and pumping losses for a given engine power. Efficiency benefits will be small.

A motor-generator electronic turbo charger is proven in f1 with the Mercedes engine getting to 50% thermal efficiency in the mclaren/mercedes F1 hybrid car in 2017 (it may be better now). F1 calls it MGU-H (motor generator unit heat). This along with a traditional hybrid mg (MGU-K or kinetic in F1 speak) greatly increases efficiency. The problem is the mg must live in the environment of high exhaust heat which makes them expensive today. When you can get 41% efficiency in toyota's normally aspirated atkinson dynamic force from 1.5L 3 cylinder 90 hp (yaris hybrid) to 2.5L -186 hp (highlander hybrid) it doesn't make much sense to spend the money in a hybrid with less than 200 hp.

Car companies are experimenting with a electronic supercharger + a traditional turbo charger to fill in the gap in spin up and get down sizing effects in 48V mild hybrids. Still this year we will get some expensive electronic turbos in production cars and I hope manufacturers can lower the costs to trickle down to lower priced hybrids ;-)
Garrett Electric Turbochargers Headed To Production In 2021

Still if we are talking about a next generation prius I can think bang for buck would be that yaris hybrid engine + 12 KWh of liquid cooled batteries. That would provide about 170 hp with properly sized mg2.

 

I notice a lot of times Mercedes (and others), beside me at red light: light goes green and you hear what sounds like a conventional starter kick in. Guess they’re gassers with start/stop?

 

Tons & tons of Manufacturers doing stop/start nowadays.
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