1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Featured Toyota is quietly pushing Congress to slow the shift to electric vehicles

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Trollbait, Jul 27, 2021.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,212
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Toyota is quietly pushing Congress to slow the shift to electric vehicles - The Verge
    "According to The New York Times, a top Toyota executive has met with congressional leaders behind closed doors in recent weeks to advocate against the Biden administration’s plans to spend billions of dollars to incentivize the shift to EVs. The executive, Chris Reynolds, has argued that hybrids, like the Toyota Prius, as well as hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles should also be in the mix.
    Toyota is lagging behind the rest of industry in making that transition

    In addition, Toyota is also pushing back against EV-friendly policy through the auto industry’s main DC-based lobbying group, the Alliance for Automotive Innovation. The group, which represents the major car companies and their suppliers and is chaired by Reynolds, has been arguing against the Biden administration’s plan to adopt the so-called California compromise as its official position, the Times reports."

    Hydrogen cars were receiving incentives back when hybrids got them. IIRC, it was a tax credit of $8000. Giving plug ins up to $7500 resulted in a cost reduction and performance increase for batteries. Hydrogen got more, but is still expensive and extremely limited in infrastructure. Perhaps it will work out for trucks and heavy vehicles, but it seems it is past time to support it for cars.

    I'd like to see more hybrid choices, but I don't they need incentives at this point. Rising gas prices will help them. As will having a higher CAFE target, which Toyota is apparently still fighting against.
     
    iplug likes this.
  2. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    10,767
    4,370
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Toyota seems to be snowballing in the wrong direction at this point... The feedback loop they're falling into is going to be very damaging to them if they keep generating this kind of attention. And last time the economy fell apart all the weaker auto companies were in way more dire straights than Toyota. But at this rate, come the next downturn Toyota may get hammered way, way more than others because of how this PR keeps getting worse for them. Maybe Toyota should ask Detroit what is was like in 2008 when they were building cars nobody wanted to buy anymore?
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    they must have had a collective aneurism when trump got the boot. i hope they're enjoying texas
     
    Unresolved_ERR, drash and PriusCamper like this.
  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,603
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Texas has lots of cheep wind to make electricity. Toyota hopes to capitalize on that - storing it as clean hydrogen. Electricity is California is so high priced, it just makes their (fossil fuel created) hydrogen look that much worse. Now - with battery tech advancing so fast, even paying to build hydrogen reformation / storage infrastructure in Texas, to store electricity becomes less & less likely.
    .
     
    drash and jerrymildred like this.
  5. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    11,490
    14,095
    0
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I would also favor slowing the push to all EV cars. Right now, there are millions and millions of apartment dwellers who would have no way to charge at home. I don't see the infrastructure being ready for all EV for a while yet.
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  6. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    10,767
    4,370
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    So we should set the whole planet on fire and pretend like global warming doesn't matter anymore because people who live in apartments won't be able to charge their car? Did you notice that up here in the cool Pacific Northwest where Summer never gets too hot the city of Portland, Oregon now has an all time high temperature record ( 115' F ) that's higher than highest temp ever in Miami, Florida? Or how about the town of Lytton in British Columbia that hit ( 122' F ) just before it burned to the ground...
     
    gene and bwilson4web like this.
  7. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,447
    1,695
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    Plan should be to rapidly accelerate charging infrastructure that would support apartment dwellers, rather than slow BEV deployment. Neither can happen fast enough.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    no worries, neither is going to happen quickly. there's more to it then joe bidens dreams. with any luck, he'll speed it up a little bit through incentives, and if possible, improve the electric grid as well.
    it all remains to be seen.
    people in apartments are the least of our concerns right now
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  9. Colorado Boo

    Colorado Boo Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2021
    307
    201
    8
    Location:
    Monument, Colorado USA
    Vehicle:
    2021 Prius
    Model:
    LE AWD-e
    jerrymildred likes this.
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    or the lithium...
     
  11. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,850
    4,017
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    That's pretty much an entirely false interpretation of the situation.

    The vast majority of people and pretty much all journalists haven't got a clue how the power grid works. EVs have the biggest ability in history to *strengthen* the grid, if we do it right.

    That, however, is closer to true. Increasing Lithium production by a factor of 40 isn't going to be easy or pleasant. Turning them into batteries isn't either either. And then there's an even bigger problem if they have nickel and cobalt in them.
     
  12. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,447
    1,695
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    Not a big problem.

    Recommend following the daily and seasonal supply/demand changes at CAISO and it is clear there is plenty of grid capacity for years to come even without future grid upgrades. Transition is happening with demand management with increasing deployment of time-of-use (TOU) plans which the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) is driving. This doesn't even include behind-the-meter (BTM) improvements that happen every time someone installs solar PV and can self consume to charge their BEV(s).

    On summer days when the grid is stressed and maximum supply is deployed in the early evening, there is always plenty of reserve capacity earlier in the day or later that night. Add to that BTM solar PV.

    California ISO - Today's Outlook

    In our case, we have two BEVs and are on a TOU plan. We charge our vehicles when the grid has lots of spare capacity and/or when we are overproducing solar PV and hence self consuming our solar PV. Demand management/TOU/home Solar PV stabilizes the grid...
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,212
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    There are millions and millions of people who can charge at home. Going back to the release of the Leaf and Volt, there are about 10 million plug ins on US road. Out of about 275 million cars. We reach out to those that can charge at home while building up infrastructure for those that can't.
    The issue isn't EVs, because there really isn't that many of them, it's the extreme heat wave requiring extended running of air conditioners. That is a home's major power sink.

    Plenty of lithium out there. Some of the world's largest mines are already expanding production.
     
    austingreen likes this.
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,066
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    The evening electrical load is about 1/2 of the daytime load. That is why there are street lights on at night. My source, USA Energy Information Service.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,212
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Sounds like California's current issue is that the extended A/C use could cause stress during the evening peak. EVs in the headline draw the clicks, but the alerts Ca is sending out cover nearly all electric use.
    [​IMG]
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  16. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,668
    6,481
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    First of all, the story is probably click-bait.
    ...mission accomplished.
    I know, right?
    I love asking EVangelists if their car is coal or nuclear powered..... :D

    BUT...on a more serious note.....
    There's a theory out there that any homeowners that are left after the next economic downturn could use their plugged-in cars as a part of a mesh network of available energy FOR the power grid since most cars spend a large part of their lives either hanging out at home or in parking lots at work. EVangelists with solar capacity can also help in "developing" states since in many cases their production peaks while owners are at work for those living the diurnal life.
    One imagines that many many EVs plugged into chargers at work during the day or in their garages at night (when it's safe to do so) can actually smooth out some of the peaks and valleys in the electrical distribution system while they're putting amps in the can.
    Several significant hurtles remain ( AC/DC loss, penetration resistant management, increased BEV charge/discharge cycles, owner buy-in, OSCAR-SIERRA planning, etc...)
    BUT....it is promising.
    If somebody ever nukes it all out BEVs could be the mother of all "power walls."
    PROVIDED of course, we silly humans can source all of the pieces/parts without butt-raping the planet.
    Maybe some pay-back for the one-percenter welfare that dot.gov is shelling out today.

    Out of a tiny acorn....

    Anytime you combine "government" with "push" slower is often better.....but EVangelistic crusading notwithstanding, infrastructure, technology, economic, and environmental challenges will keep the pot on a slow enough boil for now.
     
    #16 ETC(SS), Jul 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
  17. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,933
    2,286
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    That is a silly argument, IMO. Besides, part of the EV plan is to provide incentives for chargers. This would include getting apartment owners to install charging stations. Near my house an apartment complex has two ChargePoint chargers and across the street there are more chargers at the curb. If your "plan" is to slow down, how slow do you go? Do you wait until all apartments already have chargers and then provide EV buying rebates and credits?

    Note that where I live many companies have EV chargers...no need to charge at home. And then there are fast chargers as well nearby. There are 4 or 5 Tesla Superchargers with a few miles with a dozen or more chargers each. So people with a desire to get an EV do not have to have a charger at home -- desirable, but not required.

    Mike
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,603
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    agreed - & ironically, some of the 1st vehicles capable of v2g (vehicle-to-grid) are finally coming into production - where they can either run part of the power for your home, and/or even backfeeding your service panel.
    Just read an article that came out a couple days ago of a bunch of Chinese Nationals sent to prison in the Congo - for illegally mining Cobalt in Congo, & whiping/beating the mineworkers to motivate them to work harder. Gee - one wonders what china wants with all that Cobalt ......
    .
     
    #18 hill, Jul 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
  19. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    1,210
    648
    0
    Location:
    Near Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2024 Prius Prime
    Model:
    XLE
    Not saying that we have an energy deficit, but...

    California is currently using 48 million gallons of gasoline per day. We can safely assume that most of that is for transportation. 48M gallons is equivalent to 1,584,000,000,000 watt hours per day. That's using the 33kWH per gallon that the epa specifies. Ok. That's the starting point if we were to convert to 100% BEV tomorrow.

    (note: all numbers rounded for convenience)
    Yesterday we had 51,000 GW max capacity available IF there are is no plant maintenance or generators off line. From 7 PM to 7 AM, the majority of the power came from NG (Natural Gas). From late evening to early morning the Solar contribution of abut 11.5 GW dropped to a drain on the system of about 43 MW.

    My (California) TOU metering for EVs specify that I should not charge the car from 3 PM to Midnight. That's what they are calling Prime along with Near Prime time. They want you squish all the BEV charging into that 15 hour time span. Of course, if you are a commuter, you will only be able to charge from midnight till you begin your morning commute. That means that most of the energy will come from NG, which releases 71% of the CO2 that Oil releases when it's combusted. ( » Natural Gas and the Environment NaturalGas.org ) That sure doesn't sounds "green" to me. Don't forget that the "zero pollution" is for tailpipe emissions only. The average BEV will use a lot of energy that has resulted in a lot of GHGs on it's way to the BEV.

    You might get lucky, and have an employer that allows you to charge during the day. I can envision the parking lot for 7,000 cars at the old Pacific Telephone company headquarters. If it's like the installation at the local grocery store, there are 8 charging stations (and auxiliary equipment) in the spaces that used to provide parking for 16 cars. That campus would end up with offices for 8,000 people, parking and charging for 3500 cars and 437 electric sub-stations to provide power to the chargers. I don't see that being really popular.

    I was surprised to see that our energy sources from Hydro (2%) and Nuclear (6%) have dropped to such a low levels.

    In closing, the real solution is to get rid of commuters and promote conservation via life style changes instead of mandating technologies that just move the pollution to another location.
     
    Unresolved_ERR likes this.
  20. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,850
    4,017
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    It might be a starting point, but where you go from there is crucial.

    ICE's convert *maybe* 20% of that to propulsive power on-average. Starting from the output of a power plant, your efficiency might be around 0.93 (grid) * 0.9 (charging/discharging) * 0.95 (propulsion) = 79.5%. So, in round numbers, you'd need around 1/4 the heat equivalent of gasoline in electricity to replace that gasoline. So don't forget to divide by 4.