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$7.5 billion for charging infrastructure.

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Ronald Doles, Aug 16, 2021.

  1. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Active Member

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    The trillion dollar infrastructure bill has $7.5 billion allocated for EV charging stations.

    I spent a fair amount of time in Europe with my job. Trying to figure out the appropriate electrical power/charging adapter for the country that I was working in was a problem. At least they all had 240 volts in common.
    European charging adapters.jpg
    I am considering an EV for my next car. I wonder about the charging implementation. There are 120 volt Level 1 that use the standard plug, 240 volt Level 2 that seem to employ standard J connectors, at least in the U.S. There is no standardization for 480 volt and 800 volt chargers and I believe that Tesla has it's own connector and chargers and I am not sure of their voltages. Will there be some standardization before they start building out this charging network?

    I also wonder why there hasn't been a push for an inductive charger option for homeowners where you can just have a coil mounted on the floor of your garage. You drive the vehicle over the coil and it would connect with a mating coil mounted underneath the vehicle eliminating the need for a plug at all.
     
  2. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    I'm not sure of the exact numbers but I'm "pretty sure" that there's a significant efficiency loss with inductive charging, and there's an upfront investment whose only gain to my eyes would be to save you the 1-2 minutes a day that it would take to plug the car in.

    I can see this perhaps evolving into a public charging modality once EVangelists get more chargers out in the wild.
    However (comma!) successful suppliers will have to get there the firstest with the mostest to convince OEMs to equip their already expensive cars with the 'blue" stuff instead of the "green" stuff.
    (Marketing: fail.....the first company should have STARTED OUT with green, despite the obvious duplicity.)
    And then there's going to be another, even more obvious "inconvenient truth" that you're giving up some real-world charging efficiency (6-10 percent?) of your charging efficiency for not-much gain...NOT that this will deter the market......

    Electric Car Makers Have Big Plans for Wireless EV Charging | Plugless
     
  3. Colorado Boo

    Colorado Boo Active Member

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    I think charging issues for long-haul trips (which Americans love) is a primary reason Toyota has been slow to come out with 100% EV's here. A recent poll in California, the state the most EV owners, is showing 20% of current owners said they are or have switched back to ICE vehicles because of charging problems.
    It's a problem too big for the Fed Govt to fix....they are still figuring out how to run a Post Office in the black, (and how many billions have been wasted on Amtrack?) how in the heck are they going to figure this out? The private sector, like gas stations, has been researching adding electric charging stations to their locations but are waiting for the demand to be high enough to warrant the investment and there's the rub.....they can do it but need the demand....can't get the demand higher is people aren't buying the vehicles because of a lack of charging stations. But I think slowly, over time, we'll get there.
     
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  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Inductive charging IS on the market;

    bmw-5-series-plug-in-hybrid-wireless-charging-system_100711222_h.jpg

    but it fails to catch on, because of the multi-pronged issues as mentioned above. Charging losses. Roughly 10%. Bad enough converting AC to DC for the battery, then losses going back from DC to AC nothing Motors need.
    Next - WAY more expensive than a standard wired charge cable. The 2 manufacturers on the market are designed to charge at a MAX level that is about only ½ of the power level of a Tesla wall charger.
    Also, as mentioned above, there is some work that has to be done to fit the inductive adapter on the car so it can receive inductively. Now it's more expensive.
    Pass.
    As far as plug standardization, if you don't have a plug that matches your car's receiver? You can buy adapters. Here for example is an adapter so that a Tesla can charge on an SAE cable;

    [​IMG]

    If folks want to use the Tesla Supercharger Network, you need to blame the manufacturer of your non Tesla car - because they are the ones who don't want to buy into their Network.
    .
     
    #4 hill, Aug 16, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    hmm... did the government ever fund gas station infrastructure?
     
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  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Nope.

    They didn't fund Tesla either....or the iPhone (unless you count tax evasion)...or any of a number of transformational technologies.
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Electrify America recently announced they will no longer install CHAdeMO at new charger locations. Looks like CCS will be the defacto DC charging standard in the US.

    Tesla already uses CCS in Europe. They'll likely switch here to get part of the incentive funds.

    Wireless charging methods are simply inefficient, and the equipment is expensive.
    That study has a discussion thread here. Over 40% of the respondents didn't have home charging. Many of those that switched back to ICE still want an EV.
    Didn't need too. What was used as gasoline back then was available at stores in jugs and cans before the cars were.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    And I have a plug at home
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Which won't help you get a BEV to Florida.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'm not interested in trying, too much effort, even if there were open charging stations at every hotel between here and there
     
  11. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    I'm in the camp that suspects Tesla will continue to use their current sleeker plug for the foreseeable future for U.S. delivered Tesla vehicles, but to receive infrastructure funding build additional supercharging charging stations/sites with CCS.

    Of course a lot of this or any outcome would be heavily influenced by what will be allowed by specifics to be determined by language/terms of the final infrastructure bill (still needs to be passed by the House and signed into law by POTUS).

    For example, add CCS stations to current supercharging sites, convert some existing units to CCS, build entirely new supercharging sites that are a mix or all CCS, etc. Lobbyists from several camps are/will probably be making lots of calls to maximize their opportunities and minimize the competition.
     
  12. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    What’s really pathetic is that TESLA offers a no cost option on all their chargers to support CCS/J1939

    Yet every grocery store and “Supercharger “ on private property never has this free option
     
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Most pre 2018 Teslas DO access supercharging 'free' .... unless you rationalize that it's rolled into its original cost.
     
  14. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    "Pathetic" OR good marketing?

    I've "seen" the wonders of dot.gov picking winners and losers, and personally I'm content to let Tesla be Tesla.
    Yeah.....they drank as deeply from the one-percenter-welfare bowl as they were allowed to, but I'm pretty sure that they pay their taxes (UNLIKE SOME Tech companies I know....) and they're doing as much as they can to democratize BEVs while paying for their auto-pilot R/D.
    It's not how I would have done it....but then I'm honest enough with myself to know that I couldn't have done it.... :)

    ALSO...

    Tesla is dragging some of the bigs along with them for the ride, which is why the world went pretty much from zero to dozens of sorta-practical BEVs in the decade that I've been posting HERE.
    Somebody like FoMoCo or GM will probably force big T to come out with the Tesla SE, while Big-T will force the other OEMs to up their tech game - which they're already doing if you've read any of the reviews for GM's "Super Cruise."

    Sometimes?
    Not only do you NOT have to shake down taxpayers for money to build "infrastructure" but SOME private companies manage to do it WHILE generating tax REVENUES.....and occasionally.....they don't try to offshore their profits much. ;)
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i expect roads and bridges and power lines to be in the same condition after the money is long gone
     
  16. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Active Member

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    Ohio has been on a road improvement binge for the past few years. Our governor really has made infrastructure a priority. Much of this is required due to incredible population growth in Columbus and central Ohio.

    They have been working to make I71 at least three lanes wide from Cleveland to Cincinnati.

    You can't go anywhere in Columbus without running into orange cones/road construction. If you get away from the city you do see a little less of it.

    We have a high accident area in downtown Columbus where east/west I70 crossed north/south I71. If your were going south on I71, it required exiting onto I70 westbound, quickly crossing over many lanes of traffic to get into the far left lane so you could exit back onto I71 south. The same kind of maneuver was required going north. They are finally building an I71 overpass to eliminate having to cross over.

    One item that has been long delayed is a new exit on I71 north of Polaris. The next exit north of Polaris is 10 miles away. People who live in that area and commute on I71 have to chose Polaris or drive 10 miles north to the next exit and then backtrack. The county has purchased land on all four sides of an I71 overpass over Big Walnut Rd which is 4 miles north of Polaris. It was supposed to become an interchange in 2013 but because it required coordination between ODOT and the county and neither had the funds, I hope that with this infusion, it will finally get started. It would greatly relieve the commuter traffic on my street.

    The traffic on my street has been increasing every year. Last year they widened it from a two lane road to three lanes with a center turn lane. The downside of the growth is that there are 7 new traffic lights on my route to my favorite Mexican restaurant and 4 new traffic lights and a roundabout on my route to my favorite Chinese restaurant. To go straight through the roundabout, the lines painted on the roundabout indicate that you are supposed to enter, move to the center lane, drive halfway around which is 50 feet, move back to the outer lane and then exit. No wonder that so many drivers are clueless about how to negotiate a roundabout.

    There are very few intersections in Ohio where you can make a legal u-turn. I am fairly new to Florida and I haven't seen many roundabouts but there are a lot more intersections where people make legal u-turns. I have to keep in mind that when I am turning right onto a Florida street, not to just look left for oncoming traffic but to check the left turn/u-turn lane. I believe that the car that is making a U-turn into my lane has the right of way.
     
  17. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Then...why do they call it 'right of way?' ;)
    Help me out here.
    I'm a Navy Chief and I'm only on my first cup of coffee...BUT...
    In most developed nations Vehicles turning left must always yield to oncoming traffic unless they have a turn signal LIGHT - not their OWN turn signal!
    Vehicles turning right may generally proceed after coming to a complete stop and verifying that there are not any cars in the through lane.

    I'm sure that in lesser developed nations where people drive on the wrong side of the road have different rules - but they can't even be counted on to build cars with the steering wheel, shifter, and pedals installed correctly.

    (Note to Millennials) A "shifter" is what they used to select the vehicle's drive mode back when this was done mechanically. If you hear a boomer use the word "gear" when describing a drive mode - just ignore them.
    Don't try to figure that part out yourself.
    It's like the word 'record' to describe a song or 'tape' to describe a video.
    Besides...
    Pretty soon they will only be driving motorized wheelchairs and walkers.
     
    #17 ETC(SS), Aug 18, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "did the government ever fund gas station infrastructure?" @5

    If "fund" is defined to exclude externalities, no.

    Externalities in petroleum supply chain are sometimes government funded by way of site cheanup and underground storage tanks:

    Frequent Questions About Underground Storage Tanks | US EPA

    In other instances they just hang out there. Externalities in petroleum combustion chain mostly just hang out there.

    Vehicles got cleaner - less lead in fuel and catalytic converters, etc. - I guess we'd say that was government mandated but not funded.

    ==
    So, define funded in the way that makes you feel most comfortable.
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    7.5 billion to build out gas stations.

    i realize big oil gets plenty of subsidies, but so have charging stations to an extent