1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Drought in the West

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Ronald Doles, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    230
    280
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    A city north of Denver which gets part of it's water from the Colorado River has purchased the rights to an aquifer to supplement their water supply. The first time ever recent restrictions on water from the Colorado River probably influenced that decision. They are a fast growing city adding more water connections each day. Doesn't an aquifer contain a finite amount of water? What do they do when that runs out? Many ranchers keep drilling ever deeper wells in search of water.

    We have gasoline and natural gas pipeline infrastructure to move those products to every city in the country. What we don't have is a system to transport water to areas in short supply.

    I live in Columbus, Ohio and every Fall, our city water supply, Alum Creek reservoir is drained down to a low level so that it has capacity to accommodate the Spring rains. That water eventually flows into the Mississippi River and out to the Gulf. That is billions of gallons of fresh water.

    Too bad that there is not an East/West aqueduct to Lake Meade or Lake Powell. We could pump excess water like that from the East to where it could be used in the West. The areas that regularly experience heavy Spring rains and flooding could provide some of that water as well.

    We made a big push to get a railroad across the country in the 1860's. Water is becoming increasingly important to all those Western states. Maybe it's time to think about an aqueduct.

    Just a thought.
     
  2. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    5,596
    3,770
    0
    Location:
    So. Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    ^ This.

    This. This. This.

    LA pumps water over 3 mountain ranges to get it from the Colorado river intake point. And they built it in the 1930's.

    Why isn't there a national plan to move water from the abundant areas (mainly eastern US) to the areas in need? Desalination always seems to be that "10 years from now" answer.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    i use to say this too, until i read a story about past attempts, and difficulties encountered before even getting off the drawing board.
     
  4. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    230
    280
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Well if we could put a man on the moon, we should be able to move water from a place with too much to a place with too little. Spills won't be a problem like it is with gas and oil.

    Doesn't mean that it is being considered or ever will be.
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,604
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    1969 moon landing was an infinitesimally small part of the fed budget back then. Now? We can't even afford to fund Social Security, pay for veterans' injuries, keep lunatics in asylums - solve miles of homeless creating the stench of feces everywhere Etc.
    Different times.
    Short-sighted politicians mean that the drought won't become significant until the hydroelectric generators start sucking air. That phenomena is not too far in the future unless crossing our fingers works to create tons & tons of rain.
    .
     
  6. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,447
    1,695
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    One thing done in our neighboring township of Roseville is aquifer recharging.

    This occurs during periods were there is excess surface water, such as years of normal or above normal rainfall and snow pack. This excess surface water is stored or “banked” in an underground aquifer with existing groundwater. Then, during dry times or drought years like this year, Roseville recovers this water from the same wells like a transitional groundwater well. In 2019 and early 2020, when surface water supplies were plentiful, Roseville replenished the groundwater basin by storing more than 600 million gallons of surface water-the equivalent of filling 900 Olympic-sized pools.

    Roseville bypassing Folsom Lake with local 1.2 billion gallon well extraction - Roseville Today


    We get all of our rain in the winter to early spring, so much so that most of it finds its way to the ocean before it can be captured. Not sure about costs, but suspect aquifer recharging is a more economic option than moving water across several states and over/through mountain ranges.
     
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,035
    10,010
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$.

    Or am I still a digit short?

    Diverting that much water also has massive environmental costs.

    When people get hit with the actual costs, both $$$$$$ and ecological, they suddenly get vastly more interested in much cheaper alternatives such as water efficiency, conservation, and reuse. We still have huge potentials for improvement here.
    Desalination has a major energy cost. See above.
    We already have many aqueducts, they are called "rivers". But they usually flow downhill, so the trick will be to pump them backwards. Not just one, but many of them. See above.

    "Whiskey is for drinking; water is for fighting." -- origin in dispute.
     
    #7 fuzzy1, Aug 19, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  8. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    5,596
    3,770
    0
    Location:
    So. Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    +1

    Thankfully our area did have one (smart) woman mayor with the foresight to get us a pipeline back in the 90's from rain-rich east Texas (ironically from the Texas Colorado river) back in the 90's with following administrations adding a second one. Approx. cost was $1 million/mile with no major technological or geographical challenges to overcome.

    Mary Rhodes Pipeline | City of Corpus Christi
     
    tochatihu likes this.
  9. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    5,596
    3,770
    0
    Location:
    So. Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,035
    10,010
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    That should be subtitled: "How do solve your disease outbreaks caused by your own raw sewage flowing into your drinking water source: divert said raw sewage into someone else's drinking water source." Or, "How to make the filthy Mississippi River even more filthy. But that is someone else's problem."

    They only had to dig a few yards down into an Ice Age moraine ridge to get the gravity flows to work out. A similar approach to move Ohio water to the Rockies would require digging vastly deeper, for far far greater distances, for far far greater water volumes.
     
    #10 fuzzy1, Aug 19, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  11. Ronald Doles

    Ronald Doles Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    230
    280
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    I call it an aquaduct because it is moving water but it would likely be a pipeline. You don't worry about leveling it any more than oil and gas pipelines that crisscross the country worry. You bury the pipe more or less subsurface and use high volume/low pressure pumping stations at appropriate intervals to push it up the hills and let gravity help it flow back down the hills. I believe that there are 5 pumping stations between North Slope Alaskan oil fields and the lower 48 states.
     
  12. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    3,096
    2,163
    0
    Location:
    Taylors, SC
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Surface aquifers take tens of years to recharge. Artesian aquifers like the Ogallala may take thousands of years.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    how many gallons a day would cali need, and what size pipe to cross the rockies?
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,214
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    About half the water supply to NYC comes through one aqueduct. It's 13.5ft wide, and brings in 1.3 billion gallons a day. Some of the other water tunnels were made with large boring machines.
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    surprised musk hasnt proposed it yet
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,214
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Going through the Rockies would be a big job.
     
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,972
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    (Very interesting) pipeline in post #8 delivers about 1/11 the flow of (the west's) Colorado river aqueduct, the one delivering to Los Angeles etc.

    So for fun we can say a big one, East to West Waterpipe, might cost 11 times more than 'Mary Rhodes', or $11 million per mile. I have no reason to suppose cost scales linearly, but there it is.

    From west end, go over continental divide where it is low in New Mexico and continue due east to Mississippi R. About 1600 miles. Estimated cost about 18 billion dollars.

    Cost may be higher because that's a lot of land to 'acquire', and water still has to be pumped over continental divide, about 4500 feet elevation. Someone else may wish to estimate the energy cost of that. Until so, we can imagine this project could cost 100 billion?

    Diversion from Mississippi R. represents less than 1% of its average flow rate, so maybe that poses no special problem.

    ==
    This exercise is not entirely grounded in reality, but could be compared to a desalination alternative. Which is actually currently being done on smaller scales in Calif.

    The reference case is Colorado River aqueduct design flow 1.6 X 10^12 liters per year. Have at it, desalinators.
     
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,972
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    I can't imagine a situation where tunneling could beat above ground pipe in cost. Youse guys crack me up.
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,972
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    To my surprise, total Calif. water use is more than 30 times Colo. aqueduct supply. So if the aim is to 'water' the whole state, lawns, golf courses, almonds :) etc., there's your multiplier.

    ==
    Overall situation is that people are where rain is not. Supply from any external sources is expensive.

    Guess what, there is an entire area of scientific study called 'ecosystem services'. Guess what else, the local supply of water from the sky is rarely considered in those studies. That cracks me up too, but not in a good way.
     
  20. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,035
    10,010
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I'm seeing a figure of 38,000,000,000 gallons per day, average, to water California. Or about 60,000 cubic feet per second.

    I don't have ready figures for the other states also in the current drought zone.
    The Alyeska Pipeline pump system averages 48,000,000 gallons (1.14M barrels) per day, and burns a lot of fuel to do that. It was originally built with 11 pump stations, but doesn't need that many with today's reduced flow rate.

    And the pipe doesn't go to the Lower 48 states. It just goes to a "warmer water" Alaskan shipping port.

    Low pressure pumps won't get water up to the Rockies. They'll need about 435 psi per 1000 feet of hill climb, and Denver is over 5000 feet up. It has 'burbs far higher. Flow friction against the pipe walls adds considerably to the power needed, unless you make the pipe much larger to allow for a low linear flow speed.
     
    #20 fuzzy1, Aug 19, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021