1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Did the shop kill my Daughter's Prius?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by ticedoff8, Sep 6, 2021.

  1. ticedoff8

    ticedoff8 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    32
    8
    0
    Location:
    San Jose
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    We just took our 2010 Prius Type 3 to a local "Made in Japan" shop and now, it is undrivable.
    We took it in on Friday (9/3) and got it back about 5:30pm that day.
    Almost immediately after leaving the shop's parking lot to get it home (about 2 miles), it was undrivable due to engine roughness (described below) and the initial roughness problem was worse than when we dropped it off.

    The question is: Did they kill my daughter's Prius?
    Please read on for more details.

    Background:
    For the last 2 weeks, on initial startup, there has been a bad vibration from the motor (shaking / rocking so hard there was some piece of sheet-metal rattling), but it would smooth out in less than a minute. It was bad enough that my daughter called me when it first happened. But it only happened when the engine was cold.
    When I checked it, I heard the rattle, but there was also a subtle vibration in the steering wheel when at a stop if the IC engine was running.
    I also noticed that was a pretty significant hesitation (hiccup) when I pressed the accelerator from a standing start. If I "babied it", it took longer to get through the hesitation than if I pressed harder.
    But, there was never any smoke and the MPG seemed to be typical.
    We were planning to have it looked at when she had some time next week.
    Then, on Friday, the "Check Engine" light came on when she started it, so my daughter drove it over (about 20 miles) and she took my '16 Prius to work.

    Friday:
    We explained all this to the guy at Made In Japan, and he told us there was a Toyota mechanic working there that had 15 years at Toyota and they'd get it sorted.

    When they called with their diagnosis, they said it needed new sparkplugs (4), Coil pack (1) and an EGR valve and they needed to clean all the EGR ports (remove the intake) in the head.
    The code they pulled was a PO301 (Misfire on #1) and "egr ports plugged".
    The mis-fire made sense due to the shaking.
    I guess I can't comment on the EGR. But... maybe.
    I agreed and they started working on it at about 1pm and called me at 5:30pmn to pick it up.
    The guy said there was a little vibration, but it would clear up as I drove it. And, I should start using Chevron gas to keep the intake clean.
    They did $1,500 work on the car between 1pm and when we picked it up.

    Driving it:
    The drive home was awful and the Check Engine came within one mile.
    The problem that we took it in for was obviously worse. It never cleared up and it was present the whole drive whenever it was trying to idle.
    I called the shop when I got home and they didn't answer, so I left a VM.
    They will not be open until Tuesday (9/7), the day after "Labor Day" (3 day weekend).
    I didn't drive it or start it again.

    Saturday:
    After the drive home, I let it sit in the driveway overnight. We went out to start it the next morning and I was taking a video of the engine (hood opened) while my daughter started it and let it run.
    Watching the shaking was dramatic and the noise was pretty bad. Just looking at it you could tell it was in trouble.
    After about 30 seconds, the engine tone changed a little and it smoothed out (stopped shaking and the rattling died down) to what I considered to be about the normal sound and idle speed of the motor.
    And, at that moment I started smelling something burning or really hot (I would compare the smell to a smoking clutchplate or hot brake pad smell) and there was a huge, thick, white cloud coming out of the tailpipe (like it was vaping). I hadn't seen the smoke because I was looking at the motor.
    As soon as I smelled it, I told her to shut it off and noticed the smoke trailing off downwind.
    In the video, I tried to catch the cloud as it blew away, but when I looked at the tailpipe, there was a residual vapor slowing floating out of the tailpipe for about 1 min.
    I haven't try to start it again.
    Its sitting in the driveway waiting until Tuesday when I plan to have it towed back to Made In Japan for them to "do something"

    I bought this Prius new in 2010 and gave it to my daughter in '16 with about 95k miles. It now has 160k.
    We have always taken it to the dealer for routine maintenance and never had any issues.
    Outside of the suggested maintenance in the owner's manual which has been at done at the suggested intervals, the only additional work (literally) was new tires (when needed) and replacing a dead 12v battery about 6 months ago when it died in a parking lot (by the dealer).
    Its been an awesome car and I'd hate to think that the first time I didn't take it to the dealer, it was killed.

    I think my biggest concern is that the catalytic converter is burned out due to the misfire that has been present for the last 2 weeks. I've never smelled a burning catalytic converter, but does it smell like a burning clutchplate and produce thick white smoke?
    Also, is there any chance that if the cat was getting raw fuel from the #1 misfire for a few hundred miles, it would clean itself out and be okay when the problem gets fixed?

    I could understand why they would zero in on the misfire in the #1, but why would they change the EGR valve?

    Thanks
     
  2. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    6,058
    5,783
    0
    Location:
    Columbia, SC
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Curious if you've ever researched "2010 head gasket" on the forum. Your symptoms, from the beginning, sound an awful lot like the common 2010/2011 head gasket failure symptoms. I'm not a Gen 3 guru, but it sure sounds similar to the hundreds of posts on the forum.
     
  3. ticedoff8

    ticedoff8 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    32
    8
    0
    Location:
    San Jose
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    White vapor in the exhaust = water vapor = blown head gasket?
    I've blown head gaskets on a TR6 and one bank of a 389. And I've burned a lot of clutch disks.
    But, I don't recall the white vapor being this thick or the smell of burning "friction material"
    And, the white vapor only showed on Saturday morning - not over the course of the 2 weeks it had (what I assume) was the misfire.
    I will search for "2010 head gasket".
    But wouldn't I expect to see water in the oil or oil in the coolant?

    And, a head gasket would be the final nail in the coffin for this 2010.
     
  4. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    10,769
    4,371
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Yeah... Will be interesting to hear what the mechanic has to say... Doesn't seem like they confirmed the headgasket was ok before they decided how to pretend to fix it. Hopefully you can get some of your money back and take it to a more competent mechanic.

    You might also want to get someone to confirm that the shop actually did the work they claimed they did. They may have charged you for work they didn't do?
     
    jburg likes this.
  5. ticedoff8

    ticedoff8 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    32
    8
    0
    Location:
    San Jose
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    As is true for any shop.

    The EGR valve ($319) is somewhat visible on the driver's side on top of the motor. It looks new (at least, it has the "new plastic" shine to it).
    I can't confirm the new plugs ($19 each x 4), the new coil pack ($113 x 1) or the EGR port's cleaning.

    I would "assume" that if they thought it was a bad head gasket, they would have had visions of a new boat, their kid's college tuition or a tropical vacation on their minds and told me about that instead.

    [EDIT]
    Searched and found the "2010 Head Gasket" threads - there are quite a few.
    But, a lot of the more technical replies include suggestions about replacing the EGR valve and cleaning as (more of less) a 1st step.
    If they cleaned and replaced the EGR valve, they may have looked at the oil levels (normal) and the lack of smoke / vapor and thought that would be the most likely (least expensive) place to start.
    I'll also ask if they did a carbon monoxide test on the coolant.
     
    #5 ticedoff8, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  6. Mdv55

    Mdv55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2018
    246
    180
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    They might have screwed up the diagnosis considerably but they didn't kill the car, it was already mortally wounded.
     
  7. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    7,473
    4,373
    7
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    2010-14 had bad rings that caused oil burning, blowby, carbon buidup and ultimately failed head gaskets. People almost always have cold start rattles occasionally in the beginning, then weeks or months later it happens more frequently including when the engine is reengaging after a stop light. Finally its white smoke and dropping coolant levels.

    The SAD part is there is a company near you that would have done a head gasket for about $1500. Gasketmasters. They can do it in a day, sometimes as a mobile service if you were further away.

    Your mechanic just shotgunned the symptoms based on conventional cars. Apparently they have little gen3 Prius experience in this problem area. I don't think they killed it. They just performed maintenance when you needed a repair. There is a difference.

     
    jerrymildred and zeng like this.
  8. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    7,473
    4,373
    7
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    It sounds like they did not clean the egr cooler, the bad boy in the gen3 egr circuit. That requires replacement with a new or precleaned standby. DIY clean them with hours of work. Generally dealers and expensive shops won't clean it and either ignore it or sell a new $300-$400 egr cooler as part of a $800 egr service.

    8222AA3A-7EB0-4C5D-A3A2-FF5AAAF4CEEE.jpeg
     

    Attached Files:

  9. zeng

    zeng Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2021
    40
    9
    0
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Wow, headgasket leaks leading to broken blocks?
     
  10. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    7,473
    4,373
    7
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Yes. The typical gen3 head gasket leak is from a coolant passage to a combustion chamber. If the cylinder fills up with coolant while the engine is off, typically overnight, and that cylinder happens to be low in its compression stroke, normal MG1 cranking of the engine can bend the connecting rod due to hydrolock. Caused by too much liquid in the cylinder that can not compress. The bent rod can then break as shown in the video.
     
    burrito and zeng like this.
  11. Norryboy1a

    Norryboy1a Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    80
    24
    0
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    I always heard those symtoms were associated with a clogged egr cooler.
     
  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,472
    38,103
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    That’s what I was looking for. Any previous cleaning of the intake manifold and Exhaust Gas Recirculation done?

    P0301 is likely head gasket failure, at cylinder one, pretty much classic now.

    likely not the shop’s fault, but they’re not helping much so far.
     
    #12 Mendel Leisk, Sep 8, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
  13. zeng

    zeng Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2021
    40
    9
    0
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Would Toyota be able to pre-empt or reduce hydro-lock induced engine damage by modding its computer control in limiting starting 'power' of MG1 in engine starting?

    By 'power' it could mean system voltage , current or any other parameters?

    This does not sound difficult to implement, provided Toyota considers it as not advisable/practical for some other reasons and considerations.
     
  14. dig4dirt

    dig4dirt MoonGlow

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2012
    1,150
    741
    0
    Location:
    Lancaster Co PA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    Toyota aint gonna do nothing like what you mentioned.
     
    Grit likes this.
  15. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,070
    14,974
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    I think they crank at around 1000 rpm, and they try to get there quickly (lots of torque) to spend as little time as possible in the resonant vibrating range below that. But say, when you've just started the car up and you're parked, they could spin the engine slowly for one crank revolution and detect any unusual increase in the required torque, and then goose it quickly up to 1000 rpm for starting. "Simple matter of programming."

    Trickier when restarting the engine while the car is moving. More things are moving, but maybe the math can still be worked out. Interesting idea.
     
    Mr. F and zeng like this.
  16. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    7,473
    4,373
    7
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Toyota already designed the fix. Its the 2016 and up gen4 engine. That was a major reengineering of the 1.8L engine.

    They partially updated the gen3 engine during the 2014 production run by replacing the pistons and rings. Earlier 2010-14 engines were eligible for upgrades if they burned excessive oil during the five year 60k powertrain warranty.

    Gen4 Engine Redesign
    Did 4th Gen fix 3rd Gen? | PriusChat

    2
    014 Revised Piston and Ring Production Start by VIN
    (Based on last six digits)

    Excessive Oil Consumption Years Vin.jpg
     
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,472
    38,103
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    I believe though: the 4th gen reprieve from regular-as-clockwork head gasket failures, is due not to engine revisions, rather the Exhaust Gas Recirculation revisions.
     
    dig4dirt likes this.
  18. ticedoff8

    ticedoff8 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    32
    8
    0
    Location:
    San Jose
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Thanks for all these comments.
    Updates (9/10):
    The car is now starting and driving more normally.
    It sat in the driveway last night, and this morning the startup was drama-free and nothing unusual in terms of sounds and no visible smoke.
    My daughter then drove over the hills and through the woods to her job (about 1 hour in stop & go traffic and up and down a steep grade) with no problems.

    Work:
    The shop called me at 8am Tuesday as soon as they listened to my VM from Friday.
    They actually sent a guy over Tuesday morning (around 9am) to drive it back to the shop.
    They had it for Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday saying they were doing "diagnostics" (as in: driving it, letting it cool off, watching for smoke - etc). I would guess they spent about 4 or 5 hours without billing me.

    During that time, they drained a couple quarts from the trans (using the drain plug - not a flush) because they also noticed the weird hiccup when pulling away from a stop sign, and said the oil was definitely toast (as in "burned"). I had never said anything to them about my suspicions about the trans. They recommended a flush.
    They also said they suspected a "small" head gasket leak, but shouldn't do a head gasket replacement due to the mileage (160k). They suggested a "stop leak" head gasket sealer instead.

    They added something called "Blue Devil Stop Leak" ($45), did the Trans Flush (8qts) ($210) and cleared the Check Engine light (PO301 & PO302 - misfire in #1 & #2).
    Then, they drove it for an hour (as instructed on the stop leak) and then drove it around town (stop & go) for another hour. Then parked it.

    When I picked it up last night (Thursday), it was significantly better overall.

    They tell me this is about as good as it will get (in terms of the IC engine idling and startup vibrations), but the car is on life-support and we should start looking for a new car (they don't know how long before the stop leak "wears out" and the trans may need more than just a flush).
    Driving it around last night, it pretty much felt "normal" and the Check Engine light didn't come back.
    My daughter reported that the drive to work felt "normal" and the Check Engine light is still off (yea).

    Notes:
    It's been at least 4 years since I've had to drive this car. I gave it to my daughter in '16 and there was never a need. It was her "first car".
    The only reason I drove it recently, was because she told me about the horrible rattling on startup (about 3 weeks ago).
    While I didn't get to experience the horrible ratting on that drive, that's when I noticed what felt like a misfire vibration in the steering wheel whenever the IC engine was running at an idle (like a stop-light or stop sign), it pulled to the right on a flat road and had a weird hiccup (press the gas and the motor started spinning up but it wouldn't start moving) when pulling away from a stop-sign, driveway or a red-light.
    After that, I drove it again to get the frontend aligned (I check the tire wear and pressure to rule that out as the cause) and told my daughter we were going to have to get some serious service done to it before long.
    About 5 days later, the check engine light came on and this story begins.

    In general, there have never been any significate (in terms of cost) maintenance done to it. As I said, other than normal dealer maintenance (based on the Owner's Manual) that was done at the recommended mileage internals, nothing else was done (no EGR, No Trans Flush, No Oil Flush, No Stark Plugs, No Coil Packs - etc). If it wasn't in the Owner's Manual, it wasn't done.
    There is no doubt I'd have paid more attention to the car if I'd checked this site back in '12, '13 or '14. I would would have been more proactive with things like EGR and water pumps and trans fluid.
    I'll start looking at the PriusChat section dealing with the '16 model today and mapping out a plan for that one.

    Side Note:
    RJParker:

    Gasket Masters.
    Holy Cr@p. If they do what they say at the price they quoted, it has to be the best value I've heard of in quite a while.
    I emailed them Monday night, and they called me back Tuesday morning.
    Their shop is in Manteca, but they will come to me to do their work for a few hundred added to the price.
    They said they can do a head gasket change or change the motor in about 3 hours. And do in my driveway. They will show up with a spare engine in the truck, and decide whether to change the gasket or the engine and then get'r done.
    The thing that blew me away was the price. Even with the surcharge added for travel, the cost of the head gasket replacement was much less than I expected, and to replace the motor was only a few hundred more.
    If the problem in my daughter's car comes back, its going to be hard not to decide to just drop a replacement engine in it instead of getting a new car.

    Thanks
     
    #18 ticedoff8, Sep 10, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
    dig4dirt likes this.
  19. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,472
    38,103
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Be careful with those guys; there's been "mixed" reports on their work practices, and follow up "manners".
     
    Mr. F and dig4dirt like this.
  20. bettergolf

    bettergolf Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2019
    403
    331
    0
    Location:
    Sanford NC
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    There is no "flush" to do on the Prius transmission, only a drain and refill. The fluid may have been dark, but there is no way for it to be "burned".It also can not hold 8 quarts....only 4. I changed mine in my back yard for the cost of 4 quarts on fluid and a 4 foot length of tubing. That took about 45 min. If they have a lift it's a 20 min job.
    160k miles on a prius engine is no reason not to do a head gasket job....These engines to not have the wear and tear of a non hybrid due to the assist of the electric (battery) especially from a standstill.
    If they didn't mention cleaning out the egr system then they mist not be familiar with the Prius head gasket problem.
    And I'd never patronize a shop that puts stop leak into anything. If your engine wasn't ruined before, it probably will be soon.
    Sounds like this shop put a band aid on your problem and told you to expect death soon.
    But that's just me.
     
    Mr. F, jburg, jerrymildred and 2 others like this.