Next Gen PP

that would make some people very happy

 

It would be a "prime" candidate for a LFP battery.

 

I've seen references to a new Prime for 2023 with estimated 40 miles EV, Still kinda early for nailing down what the next gen Prime will be.

 

i'll take 25 miles and a full hatch

 

Because of the lower energy density, I don't see any PHEV car getting LFP batteries, if the target is over 20 miles EV range.

 

That isn't how LFP works. Cells can be packed tighter together within the pack and there is no need for an upper buffer. In other words, it would basically be a wash, if any. With Tesla, the difference has been negligible. And since we know Prius has room to spare anyway, I'm just going to call out your post as FUD.

The more resilient chemistry also allows for faster charging, since it can be sustained throughout the entire charge. There is no need for a big drop as it nears full. That better battery allows for roughly triple the number of lifetime cycles too, as well as being far less of a fire risk.

On top of all that, LFP is less expensive too. So, even pushing for more range to compensate for cold outside temperatures is realistic. It is a winning "formula" for PHEV.

 

If Toyota makes a hydrogen engine-electric system (in 2025) without first investing in the H2 infrastructure it will be a sure DOA except in the very small niche market in CA where now Mirai strolls.

 

It wasn't a wash with the Model 3. Getting around the same range as the standard range model meant using a LFP pack that is the size of the long range Li-ion pack. Going beyond standard range simply wasn't possible with LFP, or Tesla would have for the chemistry's other positives.

CATL's LFP packs use active liquid thermal management. Along with allowing an overall smaller pack size, such active thermal systems also reduce the drawbacks of Li-ion packs.

LFP has a specific energy of 160 Wh/kg and energy density 325 Wh/L. Li-ion is around 250 Wh/kg for specific energy and up to 693 Wh/L for energy density. A kWh Li-ion pack at the cell level would be 40kg and 14.5L. Because of less buffer needed, let's say a LFP pack needs to be 9kWh to match the Li-ion. It would be 56.3kg and 24.7L.

A LFP pack will be about 40% heavier and 70% bigger than a corresponding Li-ion pack. That's before accounting for structure and cooling. With weight and space limits, that are tight in a PHEV, it simply isn't possible to just put in more LFP battery for longer range.

Then many potential Prius Prime buyers and owners want to see longer EV range. Thus why Toyota is targeting 40 mile range with the next PP, which will require a pack capacity in the 12 to 14 kWh range.

 

Know your audience. The buyers being targeted don't care how it was achieved or what the engineering tradeoffs were. They simply find fulfillment of their own desire wants & needs... which is the point of market growth. A pack that is larger & heavier is only a barrier if you have other priorities, like long range instead of heat-tolerance and minimizing fire-risk. That's why selling to mainstream shoppers is so much more difficult than enthusiasts. Design traits very important to one group tend to be of less or no importance to others. This is why automakers produce a variety of model configurations. Welcome to a world where Tesla is forced to diversify. The mantra of just-build-more wasn't realistic.

Stated in an entirely different matter, ask who would be willing to pay an additional $10,000 for an extra 90 miles of range.

 

what audience, is this a performance?

 

Judging from the 4th gen sales drop, Toyota’s perception of their audience could use some honing.

 

Again, audience. Since they were targeting different markets, correlating outcome doesn't make sense. It's the same mistake observers have been making for a long time. Different types of battery entering the market should help alleviate some of the generalizations

 

when you make cars just to get carb credits in california, audience perception can be deceiving

 

Your mainstream buyers do care about loss of cabin and cargo space. Those have been a hindrance to the Prius Prime sales, or Toyota not put a fifth seat during the midcycle refresh? Without the incentives from the feds, states, and Toyota itself bringing the effective price below that of a Prius, the Prime's sales figures would be much lower.

Packaging all the required components of PHEV without compromising utility isn't easy. The next Prius Prime will have longer EV range. Which requires a bigger battery, and LFP would be bigger still to make up for the lower energy density. This increases the difficulty of finding space for the pack. Of course, the battery packaging was so botched in the current Prius Prime, just improving over that is easy.

People that also want AWD.

The cost for the extra battery capacity in the Model 3 LR is probably around $6000 for that 32kWh.

Different battery types will help, which is why nearly every car company doing EVs have invested in them. Toyota isn't a leader for doing so, and having them use LFP everywhere won't make them one.

 

Sadly you're likely right. It's pretty much mandatory mission statement stuff: new stuff must exceed the specs of the previous.

As @bisco alluded to: I WISH Toyota would take a break for one gen, address the shortcomings and compromises, and the just-plain-dumb stuff.

 

Toyota could increase range and fix the hatch. The Rav4 Prime doesn't have the compromises of the PP. There Toyota went with a better cooling system that allows the pack to be physically smaller for the capacity. The Rav4 Prime only loses maybe a half inch of ground clearance to the battery pack. The Prius can't afford that loss, but its much better efficiency means it doesn't need a big of a battery as the Rav4 to reach 40 miles.

 

toyota is caught in a balancing act of sales vs cost. they are not going to jeopardize sales needed to offset credits.
if you look through the 'what improvements should toyota make to the next gen prius prime' thread, it would be impossible to even try to pay any attention.
they will use whatever methods they have in the past to design and market the next prime, and if sales don't go the way they need, they will have kept costs down enough to go back to their massive rebates

 

Your commentary continues to be the type that could be in reference to any legacy automaker. What is the point?

Remember, Toyota is an automaker who feels no pressure from spin about timeline or focus. They take advantage of opportunity to explore options.

 

Take note that you can also have more autonomy by reducing weight and drag. Weight being more of importance in city driving and drag more important at highway speeds. That may be one way Toyota will try to improvw things. It it wasn't for the canadian winters around here, i would lower the Prius to improve drag a bit and perhaps have a look at the undercarriage.. May still do that..