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Lexus EV conspiracy theories

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by hkmb, Sep 6, 2021.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Some news on the iQ EV on it actually coming back. Singulato has licensed the iQ, minus drive train, from Toyota for the Chinese market. They're adding their own EV drive train with more powerful motor and much longer range.
    Did You Think The Toyota EQ Was Dead? Meet The Singulato iC3 Electric City Car

    Part of the deal is that Toyota can buy the green car credits from iC3 sales. Guess that means they need to sell less UX300e's for 'testing' there.
     
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  2. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    This is interesting, but weird. I can't see what an obsolete iQ EV platform would bring to the table for a Chinese EV manufacturer.

    ----

    And separately, with my previous lack of knowledge of the iQ EV name, I didn't know Toyota had used the EQ name. I wonder how that squares with Mercedes' use of EQ branding for its EVs?

    Perhaps Mercedes had to pay Toyota for the EQ name. Or maybe Toyota forgot to register it: it wouldn't be the first time a car company made a horrible IP mistake on brand names. VW forgetting to buy the Rolls-Royce brand name when they bought Rolls-Royce Motors is definitely the high water mark of such mistakes.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singulato doesn't seem to be much of an EV company. They currently make just one SUV at the moment, and appear to have legal troubles.
    Singulato iS6 Electric SUV Debuts With 249-Mile Range
    China Bans EV Startup Singulato Motors, Its Founder From High-Level Consumption

    Licensing the iQ body and bits except the engine and transmission is a quick way of getting another model out. Even old, it might be better in some aspects than the little cars put out by other Chinese companies.

    Technically, the name was eQ. Kind of clever, I thought, but Toyota went with iQ EV for the US. Considering the car's fate, the eQ name may not have been registered outside of Japan.
     
  4. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    Thanks for that. There are some pretty dodgy EV companies in China (and I don't think China is alone in this regard). It's great ground for a scammer to develop a "start up", raise tons of money and then claim that it all went wrong through no fault of their own. It's like mining exploration in Australia.

    The iS6 looks extremely generic - just thrown together as a platform to drive investment. And a High-Level Consumption ban is something that would cause me to tell any client to walk away from a potential Chinese partner or investment target. Although a partnership with BAIC - even one of its smaller subsidiaries - is a good sign: BAIC tends to be pretty picky about who it works with. It had one of the very first auto JVs in China, with Jeep, and went on to partner with Hyundai and Daimler-Benz, among others. They have their own EVs, though - pretty good ones - so I don't know why they would bother to contract-manufacture for a start-up. So a bit of a mystery.
    who

    I'm not sure about that. China is really ahead of the curve when it comes to small EVs.

    Do you watch the Fully Charged YouTube channel? They have a China correspondent who gives very good reviews of EVs we'll probably never see in Australia or America.

    Ah, that explains it. Thank you.
     
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That isn't the question. It is really a what-about, since those assessments are subjective and the measures selective.

    2,987 were purchased in Europe from when rollout began to year-end (about 9 months of sales). The speculated purpose is indeed being fulfilled. Gathering data from real-world operation has taken place. Confirmation that all is established before taking the next step is priceless... and very much the Toyota way. Remember, they were the ones who pioneered and has been a leader on continuous improvement.

    Last week, news from Toyota's development center was that battery-cost from UX300e to bZ4X will be reduced by 40%.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Maybe they just got paid whatever fees they asked for.
    Yes, the EV bit of this reborn eQ is much better. I was referring to the other bits of the car; suspension, steering, etc.. Toyota may not have much of a performance rep, but I'm guessing the driving feel of this car could be better other competitors.

    So they made a car with worse specs than the competition for higher price to give their sales network a little practice. I don't think Toyota needed actual sales to know the car was over priced for what it delivered.

    The ID.4 has been out just a few months longer, and most months sales were over 4,000. If VW is too pedestrian to compare to Lexus, the Polestar 2's 2021 sales will likely break 15,000.
    Volkswagen ID.4 European auto sales figures
    Polestar 2 European sales figures

    Continual improvements is easy when starting at the bottom.

    And how much does the UX300e battery cost?

    This just supports what has been said here. That liquid cooled packs are cheaper than air cooled ones that need a more expensive chemistry. Liquid cooled also makes the thinner pack claim for the bZ4X easier to accomplish.
     
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  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Clearly, you didn't read what I posted.
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Maybe restate because that's the way I understood what you were saying in prior posts.
    .
     
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  9. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    Could be. It just seems odd because demand for BAIC's own EVs outstrips supply, I think. Unless Singulato was paying way over the odds for contract manufacturing (which I absolutely wouldn't rule out), I'd have thought there was more money in making their own cars.

    ....but this theory could contradict what I've just said. While BAIC's Mercedeses and Hyundai's are great, their own-brand cars have pretty dodgy ride and handling. Maybe this was an opportunity for them to access some good small-car ride and handling technology.

    I understood this in the same way that Trollbait and Hill did.

    But do you mean that they collected operational data? Stuff on reliability and energy consumption and things like that?
     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    How would battery chemistry and data gathering apply to the dealer or salespeople?
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I think these posts cover the gist of it.
    So the UX300e is specced to appeal to only a subset of people. Those that are Toyota/Lexus faithful willing to pay the premium for it, and those willing to wait for the 'cash on the hood' to bring the price down closer to comparable competitors. Aside from someone that wants an EV now, and all the others are sold out, those are the only groups I see getting an UX300e with its price and specs.

    It has been on sale in China for about 20 months now, or twice as long as in Europe. Toyota has already started putting out details on the bZ4X, and we should hear more soon. Any data collected on the UX's battery systems of value to the bZ4X development must have come out pretty quick. If at all, seeing as Toyota is going with a different battery type and cooling system. Aside from input from dealers, that just leaves impressions from the owners in Europe, which is something that they are probably gathering for all car models.

    The UX300e is starting to sound a bit like the ELR. Cadilac, like everyone, was caught off guard by Tesla's success. They dressed up the Volt to get some plug in out fast, but quickly realized it wouldn't stand up to a Model S. So the ELR was limited to a short production run.

    Toyota needs EVs for the Chinese market, or risk being kicked out. So they make an electric version of the UX. By the time it reaches market, or before, Toyota sees it isn't competitive. So they are already going in a different direction in terms of batteries for the bZ series before the UX300e has a chance to build a presence in the market.

    Missed this first time around.

    The 70% capacity limit is standard for for most BEV warranties. By a quick look, it seems others are at 8 yrs, so 10 is a bit better. Why the 1 million kilometers? Why not just say unlimited, as you'd have to have annual miles of over 60k to reach it in 10 years?

    Then there is the fine print, "Lexus is offering a 10-year (or up to 1,000,000 km) extended care on all functional defects of the BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) main battery and capacity degradation below 70%, provided that the regular health checks foreseen in the maintenance program are executed through the Lexus network. By default, a manufacturer warranty of 8 years (or 160,000 km) will apply, in case of degradation of the EV battery capacity retention below 70%."
    UX 300e: The first all-electric Lexus | Lexus Europe
    Australia gets 8yr/160,000km. Though that is extended by 2 years with regular health checks. The Model 3 SR/RWD is also 8yr/160k. The ones with the bigger battery up the distance to 192k. The Model S and X get 240 km.
    LEXUS COMPLETES UX 300e LEADING OWNERSHIP PACKAGE WITH PRICING AND WARRANTY CONFIRMATION | Lexus
    Vehicle Warranty | Tesla Europe

    The 1 million km battery warranty is marketing.
     
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  12. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Toyota's standard "Extended Warranties" (VSAs) contail similar terms requiring regular service. An odd requirement too is that they provide a no-deductible if you get service from the VSA-selling dealer to discourage discounts. I can sell at a lower price if I never expect to have to provide the no-deductible ($100 per visit).
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It is a battery health check done by Lexus needed for the extended battery warranty. In Australia, it is needed annually, starting at the fifth year. It is no charge there. Rechecking the site shows the km cap becomes unlimited with these check ups. the Europe link doesn't mention it being complimentary or not.

    With a 5 year old car, I'd rather go to an independent shop for basic maintenance, or do it my self.
     
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    saw an ad for the new lexus bev during the olympics.

    seems like only yesterday they were mocking them
     
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  15. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Which one lol. UX?
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i didn't pay attention. how many models will be available this year?
     
  17. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    2? UX300e that’s currently available in Europe and China and the upcoming RZ450e which will likely be on a TNGA-e platform.
     
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  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It does give Toyota a face-saving way to redirect their hydrogen fuel cell technology away from passenger cars. Hummmm, how about large tractor trailers suitable for gasoline and diesel delivery?

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Another piece of that puzzle has been revealed. For those paying attention, it appeared as though Toyota had more at play than they were letting on. In fact, it resembled what we saw early with Prius. Looking for that pattern is quite reasonable too, since their approach was so successful in the past.

    Toyota sold UX300e to find out how much potential an entirely new BEV would have before producing one. UX300e is basically a mule in disguise. It wouldn't have liquid-cooling or a CCS port, but propulsion components of their first dedicated-platform were utilized... collecting real-world data by actual owners... well in advance of any "bZ" rollout.

    Long story short, the unexplainably short range was intentional. Just like we saw the way Prius was designed, there was engineering in place that wouldn't be taken advantage of until years later. In this case, UX300e can support greater range. It wasn't a hurried squeeze attempt as many had speculated. Turns out, not only can it accommodate 72.8 kWh, it will in Q2 of 2023. There's a mid-cycle upgrade on the way.

    That identical capacity to bZ4X isn't just a wild coincidence. Toyota has had a partnership with CATL for years. It makes sense they had been quietly assembling a puzzle all along, not revealing plans. In such a highly competitive & volatile market, there's a lot more benefit to quietly playing the game than to hype about winning.
     
    #99 john1701a, Oct 16, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2022
  20. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    Sorry, what?

    The car was deliberately inadequate? They deliberately sold a car with unusable range? How did that benefit anyone?

    Do you want to tell me that the bZ4x's wheels falling off is another moment of genius that we plebs don't understand?
     
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