I put Nitrogen in my tires.

This reminds me of the thread about putting helium in the tires to make the car lighter for better mileage.

There was a really long thread about nitrogen a while back. A search and read might have saved $40.00. That $40 could have bought a small inflator with built in gauge. Craftsman has a nice one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 12 2006, 02:03 PM) [snapback]347922[/snapback]</div>

Actually going out to buy the craftsman today.

Helium would not be overly logical. See the Mythbusters episode. =P

Xenon might make some sense. Large Atom, totally inert. Problem is, there's not a whole lot of it around.

Oh well.

-Staze

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(staze @ Nov 12 2006, 02:50 PM) [snapback]347941[/snapback]</div>

Well if you lived in China it might be economical with all the nuclear plants they are planning. Xenon 135 is a byproduct no? So maybe you could line the inside of your tire with aluminum and you could fill it with xenon 135 (wait, is that the right isotope?) and never have to fill your tires EVER again. lol

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Nov 12 2006, 04:13 PM) [snapback]347910[/snapback]</div>

I've been thinking about using hydrogen, but then I saw that special on the Hindenburg.

 

"Why not get better mileage, and save the planet by that action?"

Please explain how you get better fuel milage using nitrogen in your tires. You stick to this idea even though there are many replies to the contrary. From what I read following your link all a person has to do to increase their fuel milage is pay attention to the pressure in the tires. Be it with plain old everyday air or nitrogen a properly inflated tire will increase fuel efficincy.

 

I won't give you crap about your decision simply because you did it for good reason. Wanting to save the planet should never be ridiculed. Whether the choice was a good one or not I am not informed enough to say but knowing how much nitrogen is in our atmosphere I'm skeptical.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(staze @ Nov 12 2006, 01:01 PM) [snapback]347906[/snapback]</div>

No, actually the facts are that oxygen is a LARGER atom than nitrogen, in spite of your FAQ. Consult the periodic table directly and you will see the molar volume for nitrogen is 13.54 cm3 while the molar volume for oxygen is 17.36 cm3. (But flourine, with a molar volume of only 11.2, IS smaller than oxygen -- you got that part right.)

I don't mind if you're an nice person. Just doublecheck the facts before being condescending to someone you presume hasn't had high-school chemistry. I have an MSEE from the People's Republic of Berkeley. I try not to wear it on my shoulder, tho.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbarnhart @ Nov 12 2006, 09:16 PM) [snapback]348053[/snapback]</div>

Yay Berkeley, I'm a Duck myself (here's to liberal universities, in exceedingly liberal towns!!!).

I'm sorry, are we talking density, atomic radii, nuclear mass? Nitrogen has an atomic radii of 65pm. Oxygen is 60pm. Those are base atoms, not molecules.

Moving on to real world gaseous Nitrogen and Oxygen...

As per: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen (you can check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen as well, but on the Nitrogen page, pay special attention to the section on "Molecular Nitrogen"... it covers the tire question specifically).

Note: I am not a contributor to either entry.

As for what I take away from this whole discussion... I'd be more inclined to put N2 in my tires because they might last a little longer (less oxidation). But, as I said before, I've never found a place that'll do it for free... though I suppose I could just "steal" some from the chem department.

I just bought a nice little craftsman pump with an integrated (and removable) digital gage... looks spiffy... can't wait to try it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Nov 12 2006, 09:52 PM) [snapback]348062[/snapback]</div>

Great way to look at it... seriously. Keeping your mind open. If it works, let everyone know. I hate having to check my tires all the time because I always think about it as I'm climbing into a car ready to go on a trip (after packing and rechecking I have everything).

Honestly, I think this discussion is going to go the way of the Synth v. Dino oil arguments with regard to MPG and environmental impact. Or heck, the BT plate argument.

Probably can be summed up with a "YMMV, use at your own risk (UAYOR??)".

Good luck!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(staze @ Nov 13 2006, 12:40 AM) [snapback]348093[/snapback]</div>

Or your local Costco if the poster above is correct and they just leave a N2 hose available for their tire customers to top off.

I think the only reason I would fill with N2 is because it's very dry. Condensed water in the tires will become vapor with heat and contribute some additional pressure over the ideal gas law in extreme conditions. (Hmmm, but that would probably increase my fuel economy -- at least until the tire blows.)

On second thought, I think I'll get a bicycle pump for my Prius. It'll be much better exercise and I could use it!

 

Well, it depends on exactly what you're arguing. The thread is about, "Does nitrogen leak more slowly from automobile tires?" However, you may be arguing under page 12, sub-heading B, paragraph 3a, line 4, where it states (satirically), "Nitrogen molecules are larger than ???" (fill-in your favorite thing that you think nitrogen molecules are larger than. And while you're at it, decide to forgive ending prepositions, which are not so grammatically offensive as Toyota's new "Everyone has their reasons" ad. Who writes this stuff? Better yet, who gots paid to proof-read it?)

As to the molecular size, I wouldn't know. But whatever that molecule size may be , some deductive reasoning tells me that size may not be important here as (nearly) pure nitrogen (AFAIK) migrates through tire sidewalls more slowly than a 78% nitrogen mixture. Depending on what point you're defending, high school chemistry may not cut it here.

What I found through consulting a chemist whiz (complete with propeller beany), due to the way nitrogen just "is" you'll find that it will migrate through tire sidewalls much less rapidly than the simple atomic number would imply.

Surely you know how dangerous that is in a public Internet forum. You might as well dress up in brown, fuzzy pajamas and an antler hat, then go hiking in the woods during deer season with a target painted on your b*tt, and yelling,

"Shoot me! I'm a deer and I had high school chemistry!"

Perhaps you're only arguing about the comparative size of a nitrogen molecule, in which case (I accept) you'd be right. But if you're arguing about the speed at which nitrogen migrates through tire rubber, then there's every reason to believe you're not.

To add words in hopes of clarifying nothing, I have free nitrogen available, complete with Schrader-style air chuck, and I run air in my tires.

GeronimoPFudgemuffin

 

During the mid-1970s, while participating in an intensely-scrutinized study conducted under top secret protocol of "hidden-in-plain-sight," I was able to ascertain that bias-ply whitewall Continentals, when fitten to a 1971 Volkswagen Karmann Ghia (stock steel wheels) and inflated to 75 and 78 psi (front and rear respectively, and cold), would not explode when driven 45 mph from South Carolina to Daytona Beach, Florida in 78-degree weather.

What's more, when combined with my crack tune-up skills (advanced timing, leaned mixture in stock Solex carb, accelerator pump disabled, cold-air intake plumbing, 0-degree steering toe-in, etc), this combination was good for an average of 42.9 mpg... no coasting, no engine-off.

YMMV (and so might your luck with high-pressure, on-board explosives)

GeronimoPFudgemuffin

 

I really hate to burst anybody's bubble, but Nitrogen's effect on performance/economy doesn't really impact anything that 99.9% of Prius drivers do!

Nitrogen will allow the lazy driver to keep more uniform pressures in tires over a greater heat range. So, while driving on a hot summer day the difference of pressure increase between air and Nitrogen might be 2 -3 Lbs.

For the average driver, Nitrogen is a gimmick. If you can get it free (Costco) go for it!

I crew on a NASCAR Grand American (road) racing team. We use Nitrogen in all our cars. The reason is because moisture in compressed air changes tire pressure a lot in highly stressed tires. In road racing with many left and right turns and less than perfect banking on the curves, tires are good for, maybe 1.5 hours before needing a change. Tire footprint contact with the road is very important. When tires go from ambient temp to 180 degrees F. pressures can change drastically with regular air. These conditions just don't exist on a Prius. We measure the temp on every tire at 3 spots along it's width at every pit stop. When temps are not uniform across the tire, we actually adjust the suspension geometry.

All of these actions are designed to get the last few tenths of perfromance out of a racing car. On a sedan, like the Prius where maxumum fuel economy is the ultimate goal, you could, most likely, extract better fuel mileage from not running any accessories ( Radio, Heater, A/C) than filling your tires with Nitrogen.

Of course, if you love your car, and want to be nice to it, by all means do the Nitrogen thing. I'm sure your car will appreciate it and love you back!

 

Should www.snopes.com comment about nitrogen?

Racing drivers use it to prevent blowouts and to reduce fire hazards, but that's it. Nitrogen is heavier. Since wheels spin, weight gain will decrease fuel economy even more.

For about the same money, wouldn't using a $5 can or two of Fix-o-Flat before a long commute do the same thing?

 

Hmm, aside from all the other issues, I'm wondering about the environmental claim.

Do you know how much energy and resources goes into producing, refining, and transporting the nitrogen you use TO your tires? What pollution is produced during production and distribution?

What are the comparative numbers showing that the production/distribution cost is outweighed by whatever environmental benefits you are claiming for it?

Everything has a cost. That Nitrogen Tank doesn't just appear magically at the Shop.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Nov 12 2006, 01:01 PM) [snapback]347900[/snapback]</div>

Sorry to seem like we're all ganging up on you. I guess we all secretly hope that you'll at least look into this a bit deeper.

1. If you're comfortable only checking your air every 6 months now with Nitrogen, you'd likely be just as fine checking every six months with regular air. Tires can leak ANY pressure that's in there, so it would be foolhardy to let it go that long. The valve can go bad, a small puncture, etc. Nitrogen is not magic.

2. As a group, Prius drivers ARE open to new and exciting things that help clean the air and save energy. For all intents and purposes, Nitrogen simply doesn't do what you are claiming. You won't hurt anything by using it, and you also won't gain anything by using it. I guess the only real effect is that your wallet is lighter.

3. Why do you think you'll get better mileage and save the air by using Nitrogen? This would happen only if you would have otherwise had lower pressure - which you likely wouldn't if you were checking youre pressures at least monthly - as you should reglardless of the gas in the tires.

"do not know" right back atcha.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbarnhart @ Nov 13 2006, 01:20 AM) [snapback]348097[/snapback]</div>

I own three compressors, and still use my manual floor pump to adjust pressure in the car and bike tires.

(I can't shoot nails or cut with plasma with the hand pump though - if you're wondering about the compressors)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Nov 13 2006, 08:28 AM) [snapback]348171[/snapback]</div>

Please do not put fix o flat in car tires unless it is a roadside emergency. They leave a lot of goo inside, and the next tire installer is not going to like you.

However, please *do* check the pressure of all 5 tires before that next long trip.

 

I was going to ask exactly how Nitrogen is "environmentally friendly" compared to regular air because you have to extract it and ship tanks around; if you have nitrogen generator, it's less energy efficient to run than a regular air compressor, so if anything, nitrogen is *less* friendly..

Others have pointed out the folly and the false information surrounding N2, so I won't repeat it, but I'll offer my own solution:

Dry air. I also happen to do spray painting and lacquer work, so I've got a very good filter and dessicant air drier on the output of my compressor. All the air coming out of the my hose is bone dry and free of contaminants and when used in tires, is every bit as stable as nitrogen- I can go months on end without any difference in tire pressure, and whenever I do need to top up, it's 0.5-1psi, which is entirely attributable to normal temperature changes (1psi every 10 degrees is the usual rule of thumb) and accumulated losses from checking the pressure (all those little "psst" from when you put on and take off the tire gauge eventually add up).. But you don't even need a dessicant drier- I gave my brother a compressor and air tool kit for his birthday and it included a simple centrifugal filter/drier, which removes the majority of water and moisture and since using the filtered air from his compressor, he has reported much more consistent pressures from his tires vs. gas station air or the little 12V compressor he used to use (which took like 2 minutes to pump up a couple of psi- you'd be faster with a manual bicycle pump!!).. Best of all, if you already have a compressor (which everyone really should- air tools rock- it's so much more convenient to change winter/summer tires around when you have an impact wrench, and if you're into home renovations and things, air nailers, etc are a real time saver), a simple filter is only a one time cost of about $10-15, and the subsequent air is free (but for the couple of pennies of electricity needed to run the compressor).. A filter also makes your air tools last a lot longer as you're no longer blowing dirt and water into the mechanisms..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tumbleweed @ Nov 12 2006, 02:25 PM) [snapback]347874[/snapback]</div>

Just curious...what is the other 22%? In a scuba tank it's oxygen. And that would be just plain air. The P.T. Barnum post was right on in that case. Actually the O2 is a little under 22% unless you are breathing Nitrox aka enriched air. Then the O2 can be bumped up to 36% resulting in less absorbtion of nitrogen. But that is way off topic.......
Paul