GM to unveil electric car prototype

its not a hybrid if it cannot move on gas alone. its simply an EV with a generator on board. like i said, great idea. the smaller the engine, the more efficient it can be. a small generator that would supply slightly more charge than is necessary to power the car is ingenious. the generator only runs at its peak. the batteries act as a queue so losses caused by varying the output on the generator is eliminated. but gm has never had a shortage of great ideas or talented people to develop these ideas.

its the marketing and the production teams i have an issue with. like i said, lets see what they do with this great idea.

 

well ok, lets say the gm ev its a hybrid in its ability to refuel ONLY since it can refuel off the grid or use gas by way of the generator

however, those are NORMALLY defined as flex fuel vehicles. or at least should be considered as such.

an EV is one that uses electricity for 100% of its motive force. now where it gets it power be it from an on board generator or off the grid, doesnt matter for me

what i consider a hybrid is a vehicle that uses two forms of motive force, ie. electric and gas. what combinations or forms that are used in such is not a method for definition as i am aware of it.

all in all, the term hybrid used for a car is new and im sure, still subject to active debates.

i am not debating, just pointing out my observations. im sure many will have a different point of view

 

Then all those diesel locomotives are EVs then.
The series hybrid has been around for awhile. That Mini hybrid is one. The gas engine just generates electricity on it.

Technically it is an electric vehicle, but the Prius is technically one too. But in common use electric vehicle is used for battery only electrics

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Nov 10 2006, 01:30 PM) [snapback]347068[/snapback]</div>

Arguing semantics is pointless.

Focus on the goals: TO REDUCE EMISSIONS & CONSUMPTION

In other words, method doesn't matter as long as those goals are met in a reliable and cost-effective manner.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 10 2006, 11:43 AM) [snapback]346936[/snapback]</div>

I agree. If GM would put 30 miles' worth of battery in a serial hybrid, then, all other things equal, that would work modestly better for me than putting an aftermarket PHEV 30 pack into my Prius. I'm guessing I'd have to run the engine once a month in a serial hybrid design, versus running the engine a small amount every day in a Prius + aftermarket PHEV setup.

In effect, I would be able to use a serial hybrid as a pure BEV almost all the time, as long as the on-board battery was big enough. That's not an option with a Prius plus aftermarket PHEV pack, at least not with the ones I've looked at.

Also, only slightly off topic, I've been reading a lot of conflicting information on lithium ion batteries. First, that they will degrade at a fairly rapid rate (ie, in less than the lifetime of the vehicle) merely as a byproduct of their internal chemistry, so that they in effect have a short, absolute "shelf life" (compared to the life of a car). Second, I have been been able to get no good feel on whether or not using a LiON batter lightly (as the Prius does with its NIMH batteries) will extend battery life. The most seemingly sensible thing I've read suggests that the life of a LiON battery is limited to the lesser of a) the total amount of electricity that flows through it, regardless of whether that consists of numerous shallow discharge cycles or fewer deep discharge cycles (within the limits of not damaging the battery), or b) the ongoing degradation of the battery due merely to its chemistry (the shelf life, if you will). Chilling the battery extends life, etc., but ignoring that, it's going to die at some point in the foreseeable future, and there's little that can be done to prolong the lifetime.

So, in effect, as I understand it, you get X amps or Y years, whichever comes first. And nobody I have seen will say it, but I get the feeling that both X and Y are far less than the expected lifetime of the vehicle.

The reason I ask is that I'm getting serious about getting a PHEV mod. Hymotion is getting ready to put their Prius PHEV kits on the market (2007), for $9500 installed, but Hymotion only offers a battery warranty of 2 years or 800 discharges. They say they'll extend warranties as experience proves that the batteries will last longer. But, two years? Does that really reflect state-of-the-art? If so, that's a h*ll of a big disposable item, and the capital consumption cost per mile becomes ludicrous (like 10x the cost of a gasoline-driven mile). The limited lifetime (in terms of calendar time) also means that if you don't drive much, you waste the battery, as it will degrade even if you don't use it.

I emailed Hymotion, but got no response. Not surprising, I guess, as they are focusing on fleet sales at the moment. Basically, my questions are: How long will LiON batteries last, can I "baby" them to make them last longer, is the Hymotion 2 year warranty reflecting current state-of-the-art, and is there a promise of longer-lasting LiON batteries in the near future?

I'm an economist, not a scientist, so I was struck by the fact that when there's actual money on the line, Hymotion starts talking about a 2 year battery warranty. If that's the reality of current state-of-the-art, then I guess I'm not quite ready to buy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Nov 11 2006, 04:37 AM) [snapback]347387[/snapback]</div>

As usual a very thoughtful post.

I agree with your conclusion if your assumption regardiing the 2 year warranty is accurate. Suppose the reason for the limited warranty has to do with the shallow pockets of the manufacturer instead of the state of the technology?

This is an excitiing time. It would be so good if we had a clear crystal ball so that we could have dependable hindsight ahead of time. I am going to be watching carefully for breaks in the fog of the crystal ball!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 10 2006, 04:30 PM) [snapback]347121[/snapback]</div>

ok, I'll buy part of that quote...

Here is my point of view:

I drive a considerable amount of miles in prius (avg 7500+ miles per month). I bought the prius because the amount of miles I put on a car would not let me buy a pure EV. By "pure EV" I mean a vehicle that has no other source of consumption/propulsion other than electricity. To me, a vehicle that has no greater range than <100 miles is a go cart, and right now, although there are some prototypes, there are no production vehicles that will allow for a longer power cord.

My next consideration was a hydrid. By hybrid, I mean a vehicle that shares more than one type of power/fuel for consumption/propulsion(it doesn't matter how they are integrated, it is that the final motion is a shared production). If I have to drive 300 miles to my next meeting and my car requires that I put more gas in it to get there, than it is not a pure EV, but a hybrid, using both gas and electricity to get me to my destination.

If I had chosen a vehicle that could use more than one type of fuel, but only had an ICE, then I would have called it a flex-fuel vehicle.

Maybe I take a simple approach to it, but overall I am sure we are all looking for better fuel economy and hoping one day to drive a vehicle with something like a gravitic drive (far future fantasy).

 

GM: First they say hybrids are only a novelty. Now? They want on the band wagon. Who can believe any of their spin. The way they deliberatly sabotaged the ev1, it wouldn't surprise me if this next vehicle (if ever put into production) will be fodder for the next movie, "Who killed the electric Car - Part 2".

 

the battery question is a very interesting one and i think that with all the news about new capabilities from companies like nanotech, ( i think) i will wait for them.

i live in an apartment and went so far as to out bid 129 other residents for the 2 garage spaces available to us in anticipation of doing a plug in mod of one sort or another. more than 85 % of my driving needs would be EASILY satisfied by a 30 mile EV range. ulterior motives aside (my apartment pays all utilities except cable...sooo...) and i am willing and able to immediately pay up to $6000 to do it. i can afford more, but not at the current technology.

but anyway, my gist on batteries SUGGESTS that all batteries that work chemically benefit from being in the middle of the reaction cycle or an SOC running in the middle, 40-60%. the force or likelihood of the reaction to move vigorously is greater. in this state there is supposed to be a lot of the two reactives left so the energy or motivation to fuel the reaction is still strong.

the problem with batteries is that when the fully charge, the resulting compound can not always be broken back down to it two reactants easily. causing a finished product that is now electrically inert. so the concept of never being at the ends of the charge spectrum is a very sound one and i think the Li-Ion batteries you mention will probably have a much longer life. of course this assumes the charging is monitored closely and well.

out of curiosity, what is the expected range for your $9500 modification?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Nov 12 2006, 12:29 AM) [snapback]347700[/snapback]</div>

The actual first step was when the US taxpayers gave GM, Ford, and Chrysler $1.5B to develop a 80mpg hybrid (Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles). After spending all the money and coming up with prototypes, all three claimed their cars would be too expensive to market.

Before GM spends too much more money on thelr design, they might want to test drive a Prius. I'd suggest that they sit in the car on a warm day with the A/C running. They should wait until the SOC gets down to two bars before driving the car. They will realize that the gas engine in their design can't be too small and will have to be large enough to provide sufficient power after the batteries are exhausted.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Nov 11 2006, 03:04 PM) [snapback]347519[/snapback]</div>

I completely agree on watching the developments, and decided to do a bit of research and summarize what I could find. Summary is at the end of the message.

Hymotion describes their batteries as "lithium ion polymer" batteries. I could find nothing to suggest that the current generation of these batteries has significantly higher lifetime that traditional LiOn batteries. Every reference I find suggests lifetimes on the order of 1000 cycles. So, the two-year warranty there may be an accurate reflection of the underlying technology.

I checked with Hymotion's competition, and found even skimpier warranties.

Hybrids Plus uses A123's cells, with no warranty at all on the batteries (http://hybrids-plus.com/ht/products.html). Hmm. Well, A123 is a startup, maybe there is something to be said about shallow pockets of the manufacturer being the main determinant here. My understanding of A123's cells is that they are expected to last through far more charge/discharge cycles than the prior generation of LiON batteries. Nevertheless, I find it astounding that Hybrids Plus would expect anyone to pay their $32K for a 30 mile PHEV pack with no warranty on the batteries.

The A123 cells are "nanotechnology phosphate" cells (http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/cells.html).

For high rates of discharge, A123 talks about battery life on the order of 1000 discharges, showing about 25 percent loss of capacity after 1000 cycles. For lower rates, they say "several thousand" charge/discharge cycles. They are a bit coy with their information but the wording of the site suggests that the BEV applications would be classed as high-rate-of-discharge applications. They make it clear that lifetime is extended if you discharge more slowly, and so is not a function of total amps passed through the battery, but a function of both the amps and the rate of discharge. Rapid discharge leads to reduced battery life.

Edrive systems does not yet have a product on the market, but they now promise "early 2007" for consumer intallations in California. They, by contrast, suggest both that the batteries will last 5 years at least, and that the degradation is slow enough that a 50 mile pack will still provider 30 miles of usable capacity after ten years (http://www.edrivesystems.com/faq.html). "Testing indicates that the batteries should last over 5 years in an EDrive equipped Prius, with 10 or more years being possible. Depending on how the 'end of life' is defined, the battery may last the life of the vehicle (ie if 30 miles of boost range is deemed sufficient from a system that initially provided over 50)".

The edrive systems battery is from Valence Technology (per http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/co...cial_retr.html). Those definitely have a different chemistry from standard LiON batteries -- they are "phosphate-based". But the company had 2006 losses of 32M, on revenues of $17M, with assets of $11M, and total equity of negative $67M (?) (http://www.google.com/finance?q=VLNC). So, they are a company that remains in business at the suffrance of their creditors.

I know that Edrive has been very slow getting to market, with the idea being not to put out a product that wil be unreliable.

Given this limited information, here's how I summarize it:

Hymotion, LiON polymer batteries, no direct evidence on their specific batteries, but available evidence for that class of batteries suggests lifetime on the order of 1,000 cycles. They guarantee 800 cycles. That should be available to consumers in early 2007 for $9500, for a roughly 30 mile pack.

Hybrids Plus, A123 lithium nano phosphate batteries, A123 suggests 1000 cycles at high discharge rate, many more cycles at more moderate discharge rate. No guarantee offered whatsoever. Currently available with limited distribution for $32K for a 30 mile pack.

Edrive systems, lithium phosphate, not yet available for purchase, projected to be available early 2007 in California, for maybe $12K for a 50 mile pack. They claim 5 year projected life (at full capacity?) with 60% of original capacity still available at 10 years.

So, at this point, I rule out both Hymotion and Hybrids Plus based on skimpy battery life warranty and the feeling that this warranty may reflect the reality of the underlying technology (ie., short expected battery life.). I'd have to see somebody demonstrate (or at least claim, for this application) longer battery life before I'd buy wthout a warranty.

So, in the short run, I'm reduced to looking for this fact to arrive: what will the Edrive battery warranty be, for their 50 mile/$12K pack? If their website is correct, that information should be forthcoming in early 2007. (Fully understanding that a warranty is useless if the company goes out of business, I'd still want to see what they are willing to offer.)











<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 12 2006, 08:31 AM) [snapback]347776[/snapback]</div>

That's my take on it too -- that treating the batteries gently will extend life, but I have also read that the various battery chemistries behave differently. See my just-prior reply, that A123 shows more rapid degradation at faster discharge rates, but doesn't say boo about depth of discharge. So, in so far as I understand it, they seem to be saying that treating their batteries gently means discharging slowly, instead of discharging shallowly. Nevertheless, every other rechargable battery type I've owned obeyed some variation on your rule, so I would not be surprised if LiON batteries did too.

The Hymotion $9500 2-hour conversion is a "50 KM" pack, which I would call a 30 mile PHEV pack.

http://www.hymotion.com/faq.htm

 

great summarization.

some of the info i have is a bit different. wish i can get something more than marketing dept hype.

i think the key here might be who can integrate into Toyota's current charge monitoring the best.

i guess in the long run, i am waiting for Toyota to release their own plug in model. rumours were for 2008 but that has been pushed to 2009. since i just bought my 2006, i really wish i could upgrade this one to plug in, but im beginning to think that Toyota will probably do it better and cheaper

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 12 2006, 10:00 AM) [snapback]347815[/snapback]</div>

And we don't even know for sure that the next big update for the Prius will be a plug-in, but their proposed numbers for EV-only range indicate it almost certainly must be. But by then the E-Drive and Hymotion systems will probably be available to the public. Both seem to be taking longer than expected to be rolled out commercially, E-Drive has already slipped a year, so don't hold your breath to use your garage outlet for anything other than a block heater anytime soon.

Keep in mind that the manufacturers don't want to replace systems in warranty, so the large majority of systems should last longer than the warranty period. And it's usually a degradation of performance, not a total failure. But it will be expensive. You can't be an early adopter of plug-ins to save money.

As for a strict definition of a hybrid, I don't think one exists. It's just a combination of two things, up to the manufacturer to decide how to label it. What are now "cross-over" vehicles used to be called hybrids, as I recall. My bicycle is a hybrid, since it's part mountain bike, part road bike (now they have different names for it, but that's what it was called 10 years ago when I bought it). So please don't get too bent out of shape when other people use the name in ways that don't agree with your definition of the label.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ken Cooper @ Nov 10 2006, 08:03 AM) [snapback]346906[/snapback]</div>

Answered by hill:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Nov 10 2006, 09:48 AM) [snapback]346997[/snapback]</div>

Thought this certainly has been beaten to death, I'll take one more swing at the pinata. Where do you get the idea that "most" power comes from oil (and coal)? About half does come from coal in the US, and almost none comes from oil. Hawaii is the only state I'm aware of that uses any significant amount of oil to generate electricity. The bigger question, of course - is where does our gasoline come from? And how is the electricity generated that is used to make that gasoline?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Nov 10 2006, 10:24 AM) [snapback]347023[/snapback]</div>

We can argue this stuff all day, of course. There is no easy answer, and it brings up many questions regarding regulation. Many things need to be decided here, and at this point, it is all up in the air as to what to call each technology, and blend of technologies. It will get more confusing before it gets more clear. My worry is that we'll scare off many consumers with all the new acronyms, and many car makers will use the confusion to push crap out the door. GM has already called the Silverado a "hybrid" because it turns off the engine when stopped. That's ALL it does, and they call it a hybrid. So if we can move four feet in EV mode, is the car now an EV? I have no answer, and I'm not sure that debating it here will get the answer either!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Nov 10 2006, 02:41 PM) [snapback]347188[/snapback]</div>

I think John said it best here!

At this point we just have to sit tight and see what GM really brings to the market. That they're even talking about hybrids and EVs and EV range... well, that's just awesome. Finally the public is hearing these phrases as something desireable. And that's worth gold in the grand scheme of things. For the first time, we have the car companies falling all overthemselves to come up with the best electric-drive vehicles - even the American ones!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Nov 11 2006, 08:37 AM) [snapback]347387[/snapback]</div>

There's just so many players right now with next-generation lithium batteries that it's difficult to keep up!

The old days of 300 slow charges or 2 years calender life are gone, but the new chemistry lithium battery companies still make quite different claims between themselves (A123, Altairnano, Valence, SION, Polyplus) etc.

Regarding the issue of lifetime, I suspect A123 are underplaying their strengths at the moment.

Altairnano have tested their 6 minute recharge cells with 15,000 FULL cycle discharges (ie none of this 40-80% babying the SOC business, all the way from 100% to 0% and back again!). They project a 40 year life for their packs.

It's early days for all of these players, so we have to expect things to be expensive until the market evolves.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Nov 13 2006, 06:05 AM) [snapback]348103[/snapback]</div>

Clett, it is always an education reading your posts.

Based on the materials on their website, the Altairnano battery would certainly fit the bill, in the sense of being a life-of-the-car battery.

So I asked, why isn't anyone using their batteries for PHEV Prius mods?

I tracked back, and the story there is that, as far as I can tell, they have an (exclusive? "strategic alliance") agreement with Phoenix motorcars, at least for the next few years. They delivered their first battery packs in September 2006. Per the Phoenix website, Phoenix is importing Korean car bodies, installing electric propulsion and Altairnano battery packs, for sale in the California fleet market. They expect to sell 500+ in 2007, 5000+ in 2008, and expect to sell them for $45K each plus $200,000 in California ZEV "credits" for each such vehicle registered in California.

The story on that $200,000 figure is a hoot. Well, I found it amusing anyway, but I'm an economist.

Assuming I've read this right, California doesn't offer that as a credit, what is has is a $5000 (!) per-car penalty (!) that will go into place soon for manufacturers that do not meet fleet average targets for ZEV and PZEV vehicles as a % of fleet total. My takeaway from the Phoenix website (http://66.218.37.153/about.htm) is that what Phoenix is primarily doing is speculating on a ZEV-credit maket that will materialize when the penalties become binding, with the value based on major manufacturers' willingness to avoid that penalty across their entire fleet of vehicles by purchasing ZEV credits.

So, in effect, Phoenix is primarily in the business of speculating on the future value of tradeable ZEV credits -- by assembling EVs now. As an economist, I find that heartwarming. More to the point, it also means that on a cash-flow basis, they're getting $45,000 per vehicle, or not substantially different from Toyota's sales price for the RAV4 EVs. Which suggests that they can, in fact, make a decent limited-production $45K BEV, right now. Which I also find encouraging. And it further suggest that, Altairnano must be selling the batteries to them for some reasonable price. (Or, possibly, Altair gets a piece of the action on the ZEV futures revenues.)

Anyway, my final takeaway is that if the Altairnano battery is as good as they say it is, and is currently being used in (very limited) EV production, then that's all the more reason to wait.

 

I just hope GM don't make this hybird some honking great SUV (or cross over). If they do, this will negate some of the potential benefits and result in a gas and electricity guzzler instead!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pstockley @ Nov 13 2006, 09:19 AM) [snapback]348247[/snapback]</div>

Do you realize that reducing gasoline consumption from 12 miles per gallon to 14 miles per gallon saves as much gasoline as reducing gasoline consumption from 33 mpg to 100 mpg?

Edit: I tried to post a table to prove this but was unable to do so.