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2011 IM+EGR Coolant Cleanup Saga - With updated details

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by MrPete, May 16, 2022.

  1. MrPete

    MrPete Active Member

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    @Mendel Leisk wow... combining these PDF's with the live part references at Amayama is incredibly helpful! Thanks. I've now identified all of the gaskets on the Cylinder Head Cover diagram, by part number. (The two unlabeled gaskets in the middle of the diagram are for the Camshaft Bearing Cap Oil Holes, 11159-37010 (a three-hole gasket), and 90430-10024.)

    For future readers: subject to the limitation that Amayama.com only shows information for steering-wheel-on-right vehicles, most of the diagrams also fit steering-on-left such as USA...
    • Here's the late Gen3 (Nov 2011 and later) Cylinder Head-related parts diagram
    • What's nice: you can mouse over a part to find on the diagram, or mouse over elements on the diagram to find the part.
    • Click through to more details, click on one more link to show where the part is used in every Toyota vehicle, every generation.

     
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  2. MrPete

    MrPete Active Member

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    Spark plug tube gaskets on a short backorder until Fri or Monday... I'm gonna finish assembling and do that part later.

    My engineer gut tells me I already have plenty of variables in this project. I'm curious to see what if anything is improved so far!
     
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  3. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I could take them off, but we already have four or five guys doing that and I'm so busy with other things that it wouldn't be a very good use of my time. And we only have four bays available for that kind of work. So I do almost all the used car prep work plus whatever else comes in like replacing combo meter, hybrid batteries, inverter pumps, cat replacement/shield etc. Tuesday is my day to get the previous week's accumulation of EGR stuff cleaned up. The rest of Tuesday and the rest of my part time week (1 or two more days) almost anything you can imagine except accumulator pumps, head gaskets, and engine replacement. But I do sometimes help with all those big jobs if needed. Sort of the "whatever needs doing" guy. I'm making plans now to add some compressed air hose reels so air is more readily available without people needing to run long hoses.
     
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  4. Merkey

    Merkey Active Member

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    It's a good thing you retired from your other job. What would this shop do without you?
     
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  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Sorry for the thread hijack, but @jerrymildred you were going to check on what your shop charges, for EGR cleanout? It's very heartening to see pros offering this service btw.
     
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  6. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    :LOL: It seems like we get busier every day.
     
  7. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Rats! I forgot to check. Sorry. I won't be back there till next Tuesday. I need to make myself a reminder.
     
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  8. Merkey

    Merkey Active Member

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    I agree, Mendel. Every time i bring up the EGR cleaning to my big, suburban Detroit Toyota dealer, they tell me they
    have rarely seen problems with it. They won't do anything unless it shows a code. Even the hybrid indies are
    reluctant to do anything. Basically saying "Nothing to see here. Move along".
     
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  9. Merkey

    Merkey Active Member

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    Isn't the redesign of the EGR flow in the 4th gen an admission by Toyota that the 3rd gen design was bad?
     
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  10. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Yeah, they even mention it in some “white paper”. Pretty esoteric stuff for a sales blurb.
     
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  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    As repeatedly covered here before, no.

    A development within the broader auto industry of techniques for post-catalyst EGR (as used in Gen 4) was an active subject of industry research during the years of Gen 3 and a little before. The new approach, with new advantages, became ready for prime time for Toyota to be able to incorporate it in Gen 4.
     
  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    So their hands are clean; nothing to see here?

    people can still consider how they’ve been treated; vote with their check books.
     
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  13. MrPete

    MrPete Active Member

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    OK. I desperately need a little help here. :(

    Finished up. Refilled coolant, waited for it to settle down. Was preparing to turn on ICE, go to maintenance mode, warm it up.

    Instead, here are the symptoms:

    1) First READY mode: ICE on. Idle cycled about once a second between mid-speed and low-speed (1000-1300?)
    2) I opened my Torque App and searched for codes. P0441 and P0455.
    3) Shut it down while searching on those. Realized I left the coolant pressure cap off (that should not actually cause a code should it?)
    4) Decided to put the cap on and try again.
    5) Second READY mode: ICE on again, idle cycling the same. Cleared codes in case that might help. Codes didn't return.
    6) After about a minute, car said "Check Hybrid System" but OBD code is P3190

    If I hadn't just touched just about everything in the potential fault list, I'd be worried ;) ... as it is, I could use some clues about what to look for!

    Thanks!
     
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Different question. Maybe there really is some idiot mistake made in the Gen 3 EGR design. Until it's somehow proven that there is or there isn't, nobody can fault you for pursuing that belief, and you may one day find proof of it.

    The fact that a later generation was equipped with a later-developed type of EGR that came out of the research labs in the intervening time, though, is not the proof you're looking for.
     
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  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    But chockablock carbon by 200k, reliably, and Toyota saying “the majority of owners will not experience this”, that’s just situation normal. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    those codes point to gas tank vapour control. Theres a related valve bolted to the drivers side of intake manifold, with hose going to IM. Maybe something disconnected there?
     
  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    There's actually a thread here gradually accumulating quantitative data on degree of occlusion at different mileages and conditions. The world's three or four million Gen 3s haven't all chimed in yet; looks like the ones that have, haven't all been chockablock, not to the same extents at the same mileages anyway.

    They might all get pretty bad by 200k. There might be other things in the car also not holding up so well at 200k. I do like keeping my cars to high mileage as much as the next guy, kept my last one to 234k or so, but that's with an understanding that I'm beyond the design economic life and have to let go the luxury of crying "badly made!" if work is needed then.

    My parents had a 1979 Mitsubishi whose EGR needed me to ream it out about twice a year. And that car didn't have an ECM I could just ask for flow test results.
     
  18. MrPete

    MrPete Active Member

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    Thanks. I wondered about that. I disconnected that valve and hoses for my IM cleaning. When I went to reassemble, the hose from that valve to the front of the IM seemed shorter than when I disconnected! But it did stretch.

    The other thing I tweaked... not knowing how sensitive any of this is: my OCC dip stick has no o-ring. I wrapped the threads with a few turns of teflon tape and ensured it was fully seated.

    Then, I did what I should have done all along: disconnected the 12v battery for 5+ minutes. Pretty sure that was the main issue.

    Updated Status/Events
    • After 12v "reboot", the engine started at least semi-ok
    • I put it in Maintenance Mode successfully, with ICE running and heater on high to settle the coolant
    • One perhaps-concerning event (or is this part of the initial calibration?): about a minute in, the engine stumbled badly for about one second, then immediately settled in. No misfire codes recorded.
    • After about ten minutes, I turned it off, checked coolant.
    • Question: is it ok for the coolant to be slightly above the full line? (It's in the "full" lettering) This is the result of filling almost to B and letting it settle back.
    • I then did a ~30mph local drive test, and a 65-70 mph five mile freeway test including all-out zero to 65. Everything feels smooth as butter! 45mpg even for my gas-guzzling testing.
    • Torque showed "real" values for EGR etc.
    • I do show a code still, with data behind it: P0441 . Torque data: MID $3d TID $d7 Purge Flow Monitor should be in the range 0-32.757 kPa. Current value: -0.506kPa. I have no idea how to interpret or if this will just go away with a bit of time?
    • UPDATE a few hours (and 20 min of driving) later: the code's gone. and the Purge Flow Monitor value went to zero. I'll keep watching...
    AFAIK, all that remains now is installing a bunch of gaskets over the weekend or on Monday depending on when they arrive. Plus, some additional data and info to share here... a few lessons learned that may help others.

    THANK YOU ALL SOOO VERY MUCH! Would never have gotten it done without you.
    (Particularly as I was mostly one-handed last week, then had hand surgery this monday, and now am avoiding that hand... more or less. Grateful the surgery went great, with little pain. My thumb appears to already work better than before the surgery, even though my recovery time has barely begun!)
     
    #58 MrPete, May 19, 2022
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
  19. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    I put a small o-ring under the head of the OCC dipstick.

    I also put this oil and gas resistant thread sealant on all the OCC fittings to make sure that there are no vacuum leaks. FYI, they sell it in a smaller tube, but the bottle was only a bit more. The stuff dries to a consistency that will probably be a good antivibration thread lock too.
    Screenshot_20211025-152325_Amazon%20Shopping.jpeg

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I recall there’s several hoses running in that zone, and it’s possible to stack them wrong way round, making one almost too short.
    Give it a few days.
     
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