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Why Did You Decide To Go PHEV over Full EV?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by Joe Cowie, May 16, 2022.

  1. PaulDM

    PaulDM Active Member

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    Each to their own. 202370AC-9F55-4429-82A9-73144B546EA2.jpeg
     
  2. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Well again, if you read my previous comment, then you know why that is not practical. Here is what I wrote.
    Yep, instead of driving 250 miles on a 100% SOC battery from home, I now have 205 miles to drive on a BEV with ~80%. Or risk shortening the life of the battery and charging up to 100% on DCFC, still iffy making to the next charge station in bad and cold weather in most BEVs with ~250miles EV range.

    Besides, crossing US/Canada border twice on a trip would add good 1-2hours of additional time, that is even with all the COVID restrictions now lifted.
     
    #62 Salamander_King, May 21, 2022
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
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  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Bill, I am one of the biggest EV/BEV proponents around.
    Just a friendly note, many of your posts use a lot of sarcasm (I hope??) that can very easily come across as insulting and mean spirited.

    People aren’t choosing things other than BEV’s as an attack on you.

    That said, when you said “The DCFC network is growing daily.”, you were absolutely correct.
    It is still young though and needs to continue to grow, in both coverage and QUALITY of coverage.

    As another Minnesotan, please don’t make fun of our state’s name;)
     
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Yes. At very minimum, it is at least a significant deal.

    Too often, it is also a big deal with a very significant delay, sometimes over an hour each way. With intrusive questioning from someone with a gun visibly strapped to their hip, who sometimes also paws through the vehicle and/or cargo. Especially if they become curious about why you might be crossing unusually frequently or without good reason. And they have the authority to say "No", with or without disclosed cause.

    Then there are many people who just aren't allowed to cross at all, either by outright denial of entry, or because entry will include detention. And other people who can cross, but some of their cargo is heavily taxed or outright forbidden.

    To put it another way, we have a fundamental legal freedom to travel within our nation without much of any questioning. (Certain means are limited, such as operating a motor vehicle or sitting in a commercial aircraft, but the underlying travel is still free.) However, that freedom does not include crossing of international borders.

    PS. Most of Maine's electricity is already hydro ('clean' depends on who is keeping score) or other renewable. Both that generated in-state, and that imported from across the border.
     
    #64 fuzzy1, May 21, 2022
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    You've been here awhile. How many Prii and similarly efficient cars do you think are out there? ;)

    While there is PHEVs available that would work for me, I do like the idea of having two cars for separate jobs that excel at their chosen task, than make compromises on a single one.

    Like the electric grid, this probably something the feds will have to get more active in.

    Changes to current incentives will get Tesla to put CCS on Superchargers. The potential loss of incentive cash is why they did so in Europe.

    I could go two weeks of commuting between stops at the gas station with a range like that, or I could never stop again with a BEV.

    I do get the limitations of BEVs on long trips. It's part of the reason I'll very likely hold onto the gas car when I make the eventual switch. For me, those trips are over 600 miles in a day. I have noticed more DC chargers going in the last time I made it, so perhaps I won't need to keep the gasser when the time comes.
     
  6. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Well, my calculation is based on my own historical overall average of PP which is 82mpg (this calculation includes distance driven by wall charged EV portion). I have not owned any car other than PP that gave me an average of 82 mpg or over, but I suspect many of today's PHEVs would give me something close, especially if the EV range is longer than PP. For example, if I have Rav4 Prime, the longer EV range will bump the overall mpg since more trips I do can be completed without using any gas.

    Besides, for this thread, OP was trying to compare the benefit of PP vs a full BEV, so comparing real-world PP number to a BEV would be very appropriate.

    For us, PHEV or BEV, a single car is not likely to serve all of our needs. A BEV only is not plausible. A PHEV only is doable only if there is PHEV large enough with very good mpg. Unfortunately, there isn't any. So, my choice is not either BEV or PHEV, but rather which BEV and which PHEV.

    Yeah, there has been a big push for EV infrastructure in my state, but this all depends on the political climate. If our gubernatorial race goes to red, many un-earmarked under-construction charge stations will be back to the drawing board.
     
    #66 Salamander_King, May 21, 2022
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    My post was in counter to the discarding of BEVs because they could only work as a second vehicle for some. If the second car they replace doesn't have a plug, then the BEV eliminates that gas being used. It is less in the case of a hybrid, but hybrids have been around for decades now. The numbers out there to be some household's second car put the odds in favor of that second car being a non-hybrid.

    There is no PHEV out there that can do my commute on EV, and also do light truck duties. I can compromise, but I've compromised on a car purchase before, and I'd rather not do so again.

    If a PHEV meets a person's needs better than a BEV, then that is what they should get.

    Once BEVs become of value to farmers, a rural charging network will have bipartisan support. It's why tax money still goes to the rural electric grid. I think this will happen once farmers see the value in EV trucks for doing local hauling of product from field to market.
     
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  8. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    AFAIK, only Pacifica Plug-in meets our needs satisfactorily. I don't think there is any 3 row SUV PHEVs out there. If we have to go for a single car, then it has to be a compromise on the size of a 2-row SUV PHEV. It may work, but we have never tried it before. Choice of BEV is even less for this category.

    We will see how the Litghning and Rivian do among them. But, for the rural communities, it becomes a question of egg and chicken. Infrastructure or BEV which comes before? Without adequate charging infrastructures, people won't buy a BEV, but without wider BEV adaptation, the company will not put out more charge stations in sparsely populated rural areas.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I was thinking more of the commercial truck BEVs. Once the corporate farms realize the potential cost savings, they'll be lobbying for the chargers.
     
  10. 00PowderSpecial

    00PowderSpecial Junior Member

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    I can see the full Toyota line up offering a prime sooner or later. Would like to see a Tacoma prime that can do 30-50kms on a charge, my ‘18 Tundra would probably get traded in then
     
  11. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    FYI the next gen Outlander PHEV will be a 3-row. Granted it’s still a compact SUV but a rather large one with a large cargo area.

    A Grand Highlander is coming, which certainly will be a hybrid. It’s TBD whether the PHEV will arrive as well (as the RX is expected to get a PHEV version.)
     
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  12. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Haven't checked the recent model, but when I last checked Outlander PHEV a few years ago, the third-row seating was actually the cargo space jumper seats. Yeah, I should have said Mid size SUV, not 3 row SUV. The seat number is not important. I need the same size cargo space as a mid-size SUV or mini-van. It would be in the same class as RAV4Prime as far as the cargo size goes, isn't it?

    Yeah, Highlander Prime would be a ticket. But I would prefer Sienna Prime over any SUV if I have a choice.
     
    #72 Salamander_King, May 22, 2022
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  13. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    The current ICE Outlander is out so if there’s any on the lot, you could check it out.

    I don’t recall the exact numbers but I do remember the last gen Outlander had a large cargo area. We did a road trip with friends who have one and the other a BMW X3 and the Outlander was clearly the larger cargo vehicle (and official volume specs backed that up).

    What about a wagon? A Toyota Crown Hybrid is coming down the pipeline in either fastback sedan or wagon (it’ll have cladding, raised an inch and be called a crossover in North America lol). I can’t remember if a PHEV is on the table.


    Ok. Good news and bad news. Yes PHEV but hella expensive.

    Look out LandCruiser: Toyota's mystery flagship SUV registered for Australia as new-car king prepares for Crown - Car News | CarsGuide
     
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  14. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Also this:



    my apologies for hijacking the thread.
     
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  15. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I just checked the Mitsubishi site: 2022 Outlander PHEV Specs, Battery, Torque & More | Mitsubishi Motors
    It lists the Outlander PHEV as 5 seaters. The 3rd row must not count as passenger seats. Or mentioned next gen is 2023 all new model?
    upload_2022-5-22_21-32-52.png

    Also checked the cargo spec: SAE cargo volume - Behind front seats (with sunroof) is only 66.6 cubic feet for SEL model, and 62.8 cubic feet for the upper trims. That is quite a bit smaller than our current PathHy with a maximum of 79.8 cubic feet of cargo space, which is the absolute minimum cargo volume we want. The volume of PathHy is already diminutive compared to current Senna's max volume of 101.0 cubic feet of cargo space or current Pacifica's max volume of 140.5 cubic feet with the second and third rows folded.

    BTW, the 2014 PathHy we currently drive was a replacement for the previous 2005 Sienna which had a max cargo capacity of 148.9 cu.ft. So it was already a big downsizing.
     
    #75 Salamander_King, May 22, 2022
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  16. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Ahh ok. Yeah then an Outlander won’t work for you as it’s still a compact SUV while the Pathfinder is a midsize.

    The new PHEV isn’t out yet so it’s still the last gen that’s listed.
     
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  17. PianoBench

    PianoBench Member

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    I understand the cons. There are plenty of difficult pros and cons for the consumer currently. I guess I am used to the cons. For me currently a vehicle that is inexpensive can be easily repaired/serviced is my priority as I still work and use my vehicle for work. In my area (bay area) we can get same day or next day glass repair for these Toyota's and just being in the bay, you often get your vehicle broken into! Regularly!

    That is something that a high volume PHV has. But a lower volume BEV does not have currently.

    The oil change is easy for me. I have two options. Have the dealer service the vehicle when I bring it in every 10,000 miles. (I admit I do my own tire rotations so I don't really need to bring it in.) And while I wait, they can easily handle the oil and it does not break the bank. I know that they will then recycle the oil.

    Or I can do the oil change myself. And our garbage collection can pickup any motor oil when they do the weekly garbage collection. You just have to call in for spare oil containers and they will readily supply them.

    BEV lithium ion batteries are an unknown for me currently. I don't know what they do with that scrap afterwards. I do know that they can recycle the scrap in a PHV engine though.
     
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  18. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Just recently had to get the windshield replaced on my Bolt. One guy wanted to come out the same day and do it in my driveway.
    I found it for much less at a glass shop that allowed me to sign a waiver for not 'calibrating' the safety camera in the rear view mirror. Had it done 2 days later because of our scheduling.
    btw, the LKA in the Bolt is a joke, emer braking at least tries...

    That's nice that you can recycle your old oil curbside. I have to drive it to an auto parts store and sign it in.
    I still have an Element, but rarely use it. Do you know how much I miss changing oil? Not at all.(y)

    I guess Li-ion battery end of life is an unknown to me also. Tesla's have been around since '12. Their removed warranty packs go somewhere and get recycled ...

    My '14 Spark EV is going strong at 97k miles, but it was the only year to use A123 LFP cells.
    There are many Bolt north of 150k miles, and they all get brand new packs with brand new 8yr / 100k mi warranties. I wonder where those old cells get recycled? (n)
    They will not be repurposed. The battery case and components get reused with new cells.
    I really like how gm / LG handled this safety recall!(y)

    And as always, I like to ask "When do you replace a pack due to degradation?"
    I could live with the Bolt at 50% capacity which would be ~130 miles of range.
     
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  19. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I believe the accepted standard among manufacturers is 70% for end of automotive usefulness.
    Like you, I expect we will keeep our Model Y down to 50%.
    My Mini is more likely to be replaced at 70% at the lates due to its much shorter range to start with.
     
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  20. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Really? The manufacturer says "It's no longer 'useful' after 70% and you should buy a new pack from us."
    I wonder why?:whistle:

    And I'm not sure we'll last to see your Y at 50%.:((y)