Featured 2023 Chevy Bolt Is Now The Nation’s Cheapest EV at $26,595

If EVs were the Internet, it's 1993. Tesla is playing the part of AOL. (GM must be in there as Prodigy, right?)

 

.... and Amazon, which used to only sell books, is Tesla.

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It is amazing how short-sighted the enthusiasts have become. At first, it wasn't so bad. Initial audience was acknowledged by stating "EV Market" with regard to sales & specs. But as the need to diversify grew more important, they turned their backs on that reality of business having to appeal to those who are not enthusiastic. We see that obsession dominating discussions now. Toyota's effort to deliver balance is unacceptable. Range must be further. Speed must be faster. Efficiency be damned.

As for other automakers, it's just a mess. GM is still focused on delivering guzzlers, though they now have a plug. Tesla is still focus on expensive vehicles, dismissing the affordable entirely. VW still has a tiny footprint in the United States, but holds a great deal of potential. Kia/Hyundai are gambling on infrastructure, hoping DC charging faster than 150 kW will become common soon. Ford is toying with the Osborne Effect and the problem of having a one-hit-wonder.

So, what Toyota is doing really doesn't look as dire as enthusiasts make it out to be. In fact, more often than not the choice delivering balance is the one which survives the test of time. Proving their EV system using bZ4X will likely play out just like the hybrid system did for Prius. We'll see carry over to different platforms in different configurations, all leveraging the reputation that first offering proved worthy.

 

no, your audience

 

Elon pointed out that less expensive EVs take almost as much to make per vehicle but the lower margins could have driven Tesla out of business. Better to build an aspirational EV and financially survive and let the honorable competition build the compliance EVs.

Bob Wilson

 

Is the bZ4X base price affordable? Don't think so.

 

We know bZ3 or bZ2 are coming. This is not a one-size-fits-all approach like GM took, forcing Volt and Bolt without any expectation for variety.

 

Don't know anything about the price of those upcoming Toyota BEVs. I was expecting the bZ4X to be mid-30K as some had predicted earlier, but as you know, that never happened. Without renewed .gov incentives, it is very unlikely that any Toyota BEVs are going to be as "affordable" as the PP has been for me. Unless we start seeing BEVs with a final price of $20-25K, I won't consider them to be truly affordable. I think GM and Nissan are getting closer to that price range before anyone else. That fact alone makes me think that my first BEV is not likely to be a Toyota, but some other make. But certainly, it will not be a Tesla. LOL

 

Isn't that how it was when gas burners 1st started ~ 1¼ centuries ago? Horrible? Then - death traps that could move faster? Then death traps that were more powerful? Then death traps that could go further? Then death traps that could handle corners better?
Look what huge crowds came to the first Indianapolis 500.

The cool Factor brings people to the dealerships, not mediocrity.
Efficiency came later.
Toyota's attempt to get their own electric on the road isn't necessarily the most efficient but it's good enough for now - but for ending up being a death trap ... so they had to pull all of them off the roads so that studs or hubs wouldn't result in accidents. Maybe Toyota is the only one rushing to market now - being late to the game. But I'm sure eventually they'll work out their bugs.
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No kidding! They don't have to be huge, they don't have to have long range, they don't have to charge instantly. But if we cannot re-sync median car affordability with median incomes, then electrification simply isn't going to happen on any meaningful scale or timetable.

 

I think what you and Salamander_King expressed about affordability and practicality speak to what a lot of people are feeling on this subject.

 

The Model 3 was affordable for segment Tesla was aiming for. The reality of high demand and limited resources means they can put basic economics into effect for their benefit. Until materials become readily available, there is no reason to even introduce a cheaper model. Do so, and there will be more of what is happening now. The cars will be marked up, or get flipped by buyers for profit.

The Bolts are amoung the most efficient BEVs that can be had right now. Unfortunately, they are built on a modified ICE platform, and not GM's new BEV one, so they won't be getting another redesign. The first new BEVs getting that are higher end models, which is usually were new things come to market first.

The Hummer EV is a guzzler, but it also has a six figure price tag. Limited sales means limited impact. Those that could afford it could get a car that literally pays the gas guzzler tax, or something with an oversized diesel. The Lyriq won't be beating any efficiency records. Looks like it will be in the range of the Mach-E, ID.4, and Model X. GM has already sold out whatever the limited 2023 supply was, with 70% of buyers being new to Cadillac. So it is already a success in that regard. For Chevy, the Blazer EV will be unveiled next month as a 2023 model. The Equinox EV will follow about a year later. GM is saying it will start around $30k.

We'd like to see less pick ups on the road, but Americans love their trucks. The GM and Ford EV models will be an improvement over the ICE choices.

I expect VW to become the dominate EV company globally, once they get the kinks out. Depends on how fast the Chinese competition can grow. The faster DC charging Hyundai is leveraging was first done by VW in Porsche EVs. The 350kW chargers installed now are Electricfy America ones.

I thought Toyota had already proved their EV chops with the hybrids and FCEVs.
They'll spread the tech to other models...in time. How long did it take for the Rav4 and Sienna hybrids to come to market? Why didn't they start with the most affordable BEV?

People need to temper their expectations with BEV pricing. More materials go into one than a traditional ICE model, and some of those materials cost more than what is getting replaced in the ICE. Then there is taking the longer view on the car costs. The BEV has a higher purchase price, but for most buyers has lower ongoing costs than the ICE model. The public is getting that lesson now.

Really cheap BEVs will come. They are going to be shorter range, which isn't an easy sell at this time. So we won't be seeing them soon. If it arrives, I expect the Bolt's direct replacement to be cheaper than today's price. As a whole, EV prices have been going down.

 

I had imagined a Prius Prime that had the ICE, fuel tank, exhaust, and supporting systems replaced by a battery bank. The existing transmission and power electronics making the Prius EV into an exceptionally efficient, 120-175 mi, EV. Then a future body design that raises the car enough for a full-size, underbody battery. Oh well, an opportunity lost.

Bob Wilson

 

They may have proven it to you and other critical thinkers, but let's face it- that's a marginal percentage of their market.

Why didn't they do Aqua before Prius?

Because Prius was the proving ground for the technology, and Aqua is the result of a program to radically reduce the production cost through automation to ultimately support dramatically higher volume production. The reduced production cost is their latitude for price competition and profit.

Let's figure out the wheels falling off the more expensive bz4 before they build the robot capable plopping out bz2 at half the cost 4 times a minute for 8 years straight.

 

Well, I was responding to a post calling out others for not having an affordable BEV. If that's a fault, then Toyota isn't any better.

The very first Prius was about the size of the Aqua. The Aqua wheelbase is actually 2 inches longer, but the gen1 Prius was longer because of the sedan trunk overhang. The Platz/Echo might have been the model used to determine the subsidy amount in Japan for the Prius back then. It was half the price difference.

As being totally new, the first Prius wasn't cheap. Toyota has done much to reduce costs since then. BEVs aren't totally new. The components of the hybrid system that Toyota has been refining are components that are used in an EV. A counter to criticisms of Toyota dragging their feet on BEVs is that they already have all this expertise with EV drive trains.

The bZ4X isn't Toyota's first BEV. There was the iQ EV and a couple of China only models. Plus a Lexus that was available in China and Europe. The bZ platform isn't even really new. It's a modified TNGA one. Toyota calls it an EV platform, but the same announcements says it is also for PHEVs and hybrids. As for the recall, shit happens. So far, they seem to be having better luck than VW did with the ID.3. That had software issues which delayed the launch. VW has invested a lot more into production volume though.

 

Wondering if the b z line will have over-the-air updates