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No more Prius Prime.

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by Salamander_King, Nov 25, 2022.

  1. schja01

    schja01 One of very few in Chicagoland

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    What’s wrong with a bright red car?
     
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  2. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    That is actually a lot worse than 7%.

    Prius Prime's EV reserve is 6.25 kWh and HV reserve is about 1.2 kWh. The upper buffer is about 0.4 kWh. Since the battery capacity is 8.78 kWh, that leaves about 0.93 kWh for the lower buffer, which is about 11%.

    Escape's HV reserve should be at least 1 kWh. It sounds like it has both zero upper buffer and zero lower buffer.

    As a result, battery degradation in Escape could be quite fast.
     
  3. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Nothing is wrong with a red car or a blue car as in my case, but @Salamander_King can't stand driving a car with any attention-getting color.
     
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  4. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    You are missing the whole point. I did not really need a new car other than the fact I wanted to switch my daily driver to a BEV this year. But that plan did not work out. It's not that I wanted to replace the 2021 PP. And I certainly don't need more speed. Even if the 2023 Prius Prime SE with a $30,000 MSRP is available right now, I would not have traded my 2021 PP for a new PP without the tax credit. The whole point of purchasing Escape was to recapture my tax liability by the tax credit the purchase will allow me to claim. If the 2023 Prius Prime SE with a $30,000 MSRP is available right now and I traded in my 2021 PP Limited for an even trade, or maybe even with a small check coming back to me. I am still out $7,000 on my tax liability for this year. With the purchase of the Escape, I can avoid paying the tax and have a vehicle that will reduce gas consumption. Plus, I get more cargo space and ground clearance which are two of the weak points of Prius Prime. The all-new Prime may offer a longer EV range thus reducing gas consumption, but I really doubt it will improve the cargo space or ground clearance issues. Besides, it is not available now, so all of that is a moot point.

    Yeah, I can see trading Escape sometime in the future for a BEV, but at least not for 3 years. My current plan is to keep it until it runs out of warranty, by then I hope there will be an affordable BEV and better-charging infrastructures. The Pathfinder is going to be sold. I could have traded in with the PP to the dealer, but their offer was low. I already have an offer from someone for more money. A single car in our household would be fine as long as that single car functions for most of our hauling needs, and as long as I keep working from home full time. A PP would be too small for that function, but before purchasing the Escape, I was entertaining the idea of selling Pathfinder and doing everything with just a PP. That may have worked and would have been the least costly solution for us.

    As @Gokuhan said... I don't like any bright colors. But the color of the car is the least of my concern when it comes to choosing a car. I will take any color as long as the price is right. In the case of Escape, I had to pay $495 for the color... If I had a choice, I would never pick it with a premium price. But for this case, I had absolutely no other choice. The car was probably the last 2022 Escape PHEV they are going to get.

    I don't know how much of the 13.4kWh from the wall was actually used to charge the battery. As @Trollbait pointed out, some kWh are used for other functions. Actually, I did see somewhere on the dash or app that the total charge was ~11.x kWh which seems to be more in line with the EPA-rated 105mpge which is 3.115 miles/kWh. From the EPA-rated 37 miles EV range, the full battery capacity used for the EV mode is 37/3.115 = 11.88kWh. If the full charge is around 11.88kWh, that means the battery buffer is about 18% for a 14.4kWh capacity traction battery. Yep, that is still less than what Toyota allocated on the PP's battery. But, that's fine for me. I don't plan to keep the car for 10 years.
     
    #24 Salamander_King, Nov 26, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
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  5. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Congrats!! It’ll be great to hear your ownership experience. For me, I’m always keen on learning and there’s nothing better than learning from folks on this site, who I trust and “know” as we’ve interacted on this site.

    Well you might be back in the Toyota family as I posted a video where Toyota is launching 2nd Gen EV powertrains in 2025 but is expecting a game changing 3rd generation in 2027. Maybe we’ll see a game changing Prius EV in 2027 (or they might go 2nd Gen to keep costs down).
     
  6. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    My point was that you would have saved $4,000 initially if you let go off the tax credit altogether and bought a 2023 Prius Prime SE instead. I don't think you will get that $4,000 back but chances are that it will cost you even more when you trade in because of faster depreciation and higher fuel cost of Escape in comparison to Prius Prime.

    Don't you pay sales tax in CT? How about the sales tax for trade-in?

    That's right regarding charging, about 9% is used for other functions; so, you may have a ~ 1-kWh buffer then.
     
    #26 Gokhan, Nov 26, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
  7. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I get your point too. If someone is looking for a car he/she has to purchase next year and comparing Escape PHEV vs a new Prius Prime, then I can see your point is valid. But for this year, in order to recapture the tax liability I increased on purpose, Escape PHEV is the only choice I had. Even for those who are looking for a PHEV next year, the new PP may not work for some who need a compact SUV. They are just not the same class of cars.

    Yes, sales tax exists. But unlike in CA, when trading in and purchasing from the same dealer, the value of the trade-in is subtracted from the taxable value of the car purchased.

    I will have to check a few more times to see what is the actual charge that goes into the traction battery. If the BTM is actively heating the battery more aggressively as @Trollbait suggested, it is possible that the wall kWh would be lower on warmer days. It was mid-20s F last night while the car was being charged.
     
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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if it has liquid heating and cooling, the toyota buffers may be unnecessary
     
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  9. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    OK, I am a bit puzzled here. The screen capture shown in my previous comment was taken from a web browser on my laptop.

    Then the same information on my phone shows different values for the 2022 Escape PHEV. I don't know why???

    upload_2022-11-26_20-14-19.png
     
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  10. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Did you file a claim with the insurance company? Did the dealer deduct for that sighting Carfax etc.?
     
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  11. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    You must be using the Canadian app with imperial gallons. ;)

    The correct values should be on your window sticker:

    combined mpg on electricity: 105 mpge
    combined mpg on gas only: 40 mpg
     
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  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Seconding bisco, the air cooling of the Prime battery would mean Toyota couldn't make full use of the batteries capacity.
    Could be imperial gallons, but that wouldn't explain the electric range difference, nor why a US government site would use imperial units.

    The 2023 Escape PHEV is a refresh. Drivetrain is mostly the same. One site mentions the motor being more powerful. Possible the chemistry is improved. Ford has the 2023 up on the site, but not the fuel economy numbers. Maybe the app numbers are actually for the 2023.
     
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  13. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Yes, I had the side panel scrape fixed using insurance. And that fact was disclosed to the dealer who bought my PP. But I don't know if that did show up on the Carfax or not. The initial offering was $28K. I said NO to the offer. When they asked what would make the deal possible, I told them we are at least $5K apart. After some negotiations, they came back with a $32K offer. They also sweetened the deal with ~$1K worth of perks on top of that.

    Yes, the first numbers I posted are the correct values. I don't know what is causing the discrepancy. But it seems it is a browser-specific setting. Here is the same URL displaying two different values on my phone browsers. One on the left showing the correct values is using Brave browser. The one on the right (incorrect numbers) is by Chrome browser. Both on Android 13 phone. But I don't think it is a Chrome issue per se. The correct value is displayed on the Chrome browser on my laptop.

    upload_2022-11-26_23-34-37.png
    No
     
    #33 Salamander_King, Nov 26, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2022
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  14. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Very strange. Compare the URLs. Perhaps the Brave browser is somehow accessing a hidden vehicle.
     
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  15. ccna101

    ccna101 Junior Member

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    Congratulation on the move, and I fully understand your position of switching advantage ...
     
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  16. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I found what was causing the discrepancy. The fueleconomy.gov site gives the ability to "Personalize" the underlying conditions assumed for the calculation. The default is set for 55% of the driving to be done in "stop-and-go" traffic.

    upload_2022-11-27_11-32-3.png

    I must have changed this value on the Chrome browser on my phone some time ago and checked the "remember my setting" on the page. So, my setting was 100% of miles are in "stop-and-go" traffic. With that assumption, you get the increased mpge, mpg, and EV range numbers. The 100% "stop-and-go" traffic is slow-speed traffic only. If I use 0% of miles in "stop-and-go" traffic, I get reduced mpge, mpg, and EV range numbers as shown below. This assumes everything is fast-speed traffic.

    upload_2022-11-27_11-36-46.png
     
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  17. joachimz

    joachimz Senior Member

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    Congrats! haven't posted in quite some time, but I also traded my 2017 PP Plus a couple weeks ago, dealer trade-in offer was too good to pass on (better than Carvana/Casrmax). Now have a 22 Bolt EUV, @jerrymildred's post got me looking into it and I pulled the plug.
    Very happy with my decision. PP was awesome for as long as it lasted me ...
     
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  18. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Congrats on your Bolt EUV! I also thought about Bolt EUV or even Leaf when my plan to purchase Solterra fell apart. The problem was that Bolt did not offer any tax credit this year, so that would not work even though it would have been cheaper than buying a Leaf Plus with the full tax credit. Then I thought, since if I get a full BEV, it will be strictly a neighborhood vehicle anyway, I was going to get the cheapest Leaf with 147 miles EV range. The problem was that even if I find one available at the nearest Nissan dealer, I can't drive it home without stopping to recharge. There is absolutely no fast charging station in between except one Supercharger station exclusive to Tesla. I would have to stay at a motel or friend's to get the car charged most likely overnight. The thing is that situation does not improve much even with Leaf Plus or Bolt or most other BEVs on market today with over 200 miles of EV range. With the current charging infrastructure, I would need to buy either Tesla and depend on the Supercharger station, or buy a non-Tesla BEV with 400+ miles of EV range. Either way, it would be too expensive. That's when I realized, I have to keep a PHEV as our main car.
     
    #38 Salamander_King, Nov 27, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2022
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  19. Louis19

    Louis19 Active Member

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    Congrats ! for your new PHEV
    Your expertise with the Prime was very appreciated , hope you will post your impressions with your new vehicule. Comparing the Ford phev to the Prime could be very usefull to some of us.:rolleyes:
     
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  20. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Hopefully, for me it will be no more Prius Prime (Gen 4) and welcome Prius Prime Gen 5 soon. ;)

    While BEVs are good, Toyota always stays ahead of the game with its safety systems and reliability. TSS was a first in the industry, and TSS 3.0 with Prius Prime add-ons will leave every other safety system in the industry in the dust.

    For me these are what I need in a car in importance order:
    1. safety systems
    2. reliability
    3. having a gas tank (at least for now)
    4. low depreciation
    5. overall driving performance
    6. overall quality
    7. affordability
    8. extra features
    9. looks
    Prius Prime, especially Gen 5, excels at all of these. Even if I forgo the gas tank, none of the BEVs in the market (perhaps except for the bZ4X unicorn) even live up to half of the other features I listed.
     
    #40 Gokhan, Nov 27, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2022