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Super cold (around 15 degrees) start this morning, engine started very rough

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by nivekonbass, Nov 19, 2022.

  1. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Think you made a big jump from symptoms to diagnosis? Seems to me you skipped diagnostic testing somewhere in the middle there? If the two times an EGR valve is closed is at idle end at wide open throttle then how is a possibly clogged EGR circuit is the cause of rough idle on cold startup? A lot of assumptions made and none of them are right. No diagnosis has been made. Therefore no repair is warranted until it diagnosis is made. No diagnosis maybe necessary at this time either. Your title explains the cause and effect relationship. Consider a tune up and move on. But you're not qualified to make that diagnosis either. Find someone who is. I'm sorry this is insulting but you're going to embark on a project that is not going to resolve the symptoms you had and they were one time only during cold weather. Even if the EGR circuit were completely clogged 100%, it would not cause a rough startup at idle because the EGR circuit is closed anyway. This whole conversation should never have taken place ;-)
     
    #41 douglasjre, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
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  2. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    But what is a 'cold soak start'?
    Isn't that every cold start?
    Especially this time of year,,, for some of us..
     
  3. nivekonbass

    nivekonbass Member

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    I'm not sure if I should even acknowledge your post since you replied to the first one and a lot has been said since then.

    Long story short, I completely agree with you that I don't need to do this. But since I am in there already and will have removed the 47 bolts required to reach the spark plugs (if that isn't planned obsolescence I don't know what is, good reason to charge another 2 hours in labor), I'll do everything I can while it's a little warm out. This is all preventative. I know I don't need to do shit. And this really doesn't seem too difficult compared to other shit i've worked on. I got all the swivel sockets and extensions and sizes and power tools you could ask for, and have been repairing my own cars since I was 16. I got thizs

    PS. The two Toyota dealerships I took my car to didn't even look @ my car and told me they had a special cleaner special for this with special magic ingredients and to bring it once a year for 1K. They literally had a sheet of paper made with MS Office and times new roman font with large red text with all the hybrid crap they have to do regularly. There is a reason I don't go to "professionals" and a reason I question everything.
     
  4. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    I guess I don't understand Mendel's post.
    Why/what is 'politicized' ?
    From his post he is either saying it was easy to clean his intake manifold and the EGR components, or it was hard...

    Is questioning the usefulness of all this work the 'politics'?
    I'm curious of the history of this maintenance procedure that toyota does not talk about.
    Which came first?
    Bad head gaskets?
    Or someone finding the EGR cooler/intake manifold clogged and then linking them?

    grit, buddy, you have room in your 'signature' to shed whatever it is you do to even more members of this forum.
    That seems to be what you do mostly here. What is the size limit in the 'signature' space?
    Maybe you could request even more space as your commentary section! (y)
     
  5. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    $1000 for squirting some snake oil in somewhere?
    Wow!
    Some here claim pouring some certain snake oil in your gas will do something to your EGR circuit, so they are not alone...
     
  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    But what if EGR clogging causes head gasket to fail, and head gasket lets coolant into cylinder? Causing hydro-lock.That’s the hotly debated “if”.

    Myself I’d rather not find out the hard way, and DIY is cheap as dirt. And about the only way to get it done thoroughly. Unless you’re in Tampa, Florida. (y)
     
    #46 Mendel Leisk, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  7. nivekonbass

    nivekonbass Member

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    Took a small break. for anyone who cares, here's a look @ the spark plugs and puddle of oil @ the bottom of the intake. 20221206_101750.jpg 20221206_101735.jpg
     
    #47 nivekonbass, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
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  8. nivekonbass

    nivekonbass Member

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    MB i meant heat soak close enough.
     
    #48 nivekonbass, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  9. nivekonbass

    nivekonbass Member

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    duplicate post, ignore
     
  10. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    It's not going to hurt to do it early. It will just be easier. And you'll be able to get through
    the winter without having to worry about it. And you'll know how easy it is and what to do
    the next time.

     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, the debated part is the strength of the belief that EGR is behind the gaskets failing.

    As far as I've seen, no one is debating whether a failed head gasket, neglected long enough, can cause hydro-lock and engine damage.

    So that would suggest that a person ought to be pretty attentive to signs of gasket leakage, and not neglect them long, irrespective of why the gasket fails or why anyone thinks it might fail.

    If you subscribe to the EGR's-the-cause school of thought, then you might put extra effort into EGR cleaning, and if you subscribe to the old-coolant's-the-cause or thermal-cycling's-the-cause schools of thought, you might put extra effort in those directions. If you're a cover-the-bases sort, you might put some modest effort in more than one of those directions.

    The key thing to avoid is getting so high on your own supply that you think "ok, now that I've taken care of what I believe to be the cause, I'll relax about possible head gasket failures."

    Being attentive to any signs the gasket has actually failed, and addressing those promptly, is the key to avoiding hydro-lock and engine damage, whatever the cause of the gasket failure may or may not be.
     
    #51 ChapmanF, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
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  12. nivekonbass

    nivekonbass Member

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    Yeah for sure it's not terrible so far, mostly the wiring harness pissing me off so far and I dropped the dip stick bracket.

    I felt for that stubborn bolt and I feel like I can get a small 1/4 inch ratchet in there w/ a swivel socket. Is it possible to remove the stud WITH the nut still attached? I kind of tried it on the easy one but it felt pretty stiff and I didn't want to shear anything off so I didn't put too much weight on it. Has anyone done that?
     
  13. nivekonbass

    nivekonbass Member

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    another duplicate sorry for being trash, ps why is there no delete button dammit
     
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Most folks will edit a dup post to just be a single dot. And then maybe use the Report button so a mod will make the post go away, but I have a feeling single-dot posts eventually go away anyway.
     
  15. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    If you loosen he nut, then use the reverse torx to remove the stud. It's not super tight.
    At least mine wasn't. Save the nut, it fits other studs.

     
  16. nivekonbass

    nivekonbass Member

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    20221206_132020.jpg 20221206_132030.jpg 20221206_131905.jpg 1.jpg
     

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  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    You could just loosen the nut slightly, then switch over to the E8 socket. There's no real advantage though, and outside chance the E8 socket wouldn't be fully seated on the stud, which you DON'T want.

    I backed out that stud with a 1/4" Jet brand ratchet wrench, going very careful at first. Breaking it loose I was sweating, wondering what would give first...

    It'll take a while, hard on the back because you can barely get a click on the ratchet, due to the zone being so congested. I took ours out roughly around 85K kms, and it was stubborn practically till there was only one or two threads still in there.

    Torque spec's in attached, and with anti-seize applied maybe reduce torque by 1/3. Keep in mind too: all these side of the EGR component fasteners could be removed, and the whole thing would still be very solid. @Ragingfit , with his 4th engine into 3rd gen, has the EGR system spanning from the pipe's connection at intake manifold, to the cooler's connection at the exhaust manifold.

    upload_2022-12-6_11-57-21.png

    Addendum: I'm just thinking back, when I revisited our EGR a few days back, I don't think I needed to take the front/side stud out, the one that goes through the EGR valve. The stud on the cooler's lower bracket was out (from way back when). I took the nut off the stud at the EGR valve, took the nuts off the back studs (at exhaust connection, and the bolt at top bracket of cooler. And that was it: I was able to till the assembly towards the driver's side, clear that front stud, pull the assembly towards the front and off. It DID bang a solid coolant tube running over: I had to loosen it's support bolt and flex it up slightly.
     

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    #57 Mendel Leisk, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  18. nivekonbass

    nivekonbass Member

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    Thanks again Mendel.

    So I didn't completely finish the job today because it got dark out while I was cleaning the intake real well.

    An update on that stubborn nut. I am not kidding when I tell you, I got the nut out in 30 seconds. But now my issue is the stud. I cannot for the life of me get my socket on it. One of the problems is my extension doesn't hold the cheap 1/4 e8 socket i bought firmly so it kinda wobbles around with all my extensions/adapters/you name it and with limited space it's tough to control :(. I tried putting tape over it and all sorts of things to make it firmer, helped but no go.

    I'm not familiar how these particular studs work. The way its described, in order to remove it, you must remove the studs. In my world, a stud does nothing but hold a nut of some sort. (n).

    I'm just trying to get the EGR cooler loose enough to be able to access the bolts on the back of the EGR valve connecting to the cooler. Can I still do that w/o removing that stud? While we're at the question, do I need to remove that stud if I got the bolt off.
     
    #58 nivekonbass, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  19. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    You really need to get that out. Maybe a better extention?
    You're not going to be able to bend it out of the way.

    Try paper. Fold it over the extention, then force the socket over it.
    A small magnet might hold it in place...
    Are you certain you have the correct size socket?


     
  20. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    That's what it is, a headless (other than the E8 end) bolt with a nut on it. Did you get the nut off? (Unclear what you mean by bolt in this context.)