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2011 Prius misfire cold under load codes

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Raphael Muscarelle, Mar 10, 2023.

  1. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    When talking about trouble codes, it's very important to mind your P's and C's (and B's and U's). A P0300 and a C0300 are completely different codes. The one from the Powertrain is about engine misfires on multiple cylinders, while the one from the Chassis would be about the speed sensor on the rear propshaft.

    A Prius doesn't have a rear propshaft, or a rear propshaft sensor, or a C0300 code. (And because C0300 is in the C0 range that is standardized by SAE across all car makes and models, there won't be other cars that use a C0300 code to mean something different.)

    That means there's a first order of business here. What is this code scanner you are using? it appears to report some codes that are bogus in a Prius. There was another app that used to do that, but it got fixed, and the codes it used to report were bogus in a different way than these. It would be good for everybody to know what app or tool this is.

    Naturally, it may be extra hard to diagnose a car problem while using a tool that gives bogus info.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    That is Dr Prius. I can look for an update
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  3. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    No codes better than bogus codes. :)

    Any warning lights?

    Even newer Dr. Prius is still kind of a specialist app, selective in which codes from the car it can show.
     
  5. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Only after it misfires a bunch. Code c0302 comes up then. On the old app. On top of the other ones.
    It can start and run fine at stop.
    I can drive it down to the stop sign less then a block.
    Go to turn onto the street and start to excelerate it starts to misfire. I let off the gas. Then put some gas into it. Misfire. Letoff the gas.
    Put gas back in it would be fine.
    Sometimes a 3rd time.
    If I let it misfire too long code pops light comes on.

    So I'm leaning towards air fuel problems. The white plugs say alot about it running lean.
    Possibly speed sensor telling computer wrong speed so it might be requesting wrong about of fuel.

    Oh yeah more gas I give it the harder it misfires.

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    #25 Raphael Muscarelle, Mar 11, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2023
  6. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    I just remembered. The throttle body plug had a bunch of corrosion I tried to clean off I guess about a month ago. Could only spray it with an electrical cleaner.
    They sell a solder in plug I'll try swapping it out with.


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  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Wheel speed sensors aren't used in ECM mixture control, so that cul-de-sac can be avoided, anyway. If you have speed sensor codes, that'll just be another issue to address, with the brake system.

    The brake system can give its codes by the blink method, by the way, so if you have any of the brake system warning lights and Dr. Prius won't show you those codes, you can get them that way.

    Blink (a/k/a Flash) Codes – How to. | PriusChat
     
  8. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    The sensor code is read correctly. I did have that once. But not now.
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  9. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Ok I slacked off yesterday since it was cold 64 degrees. Didn't swap out plugs. Today I did first I took tiny drive it was very bad.
    Then I swapped out denzo for ngk plugs the good ones.
    Put back in ngk coils. First tiny drive it was fine.
    This doesn't mean I don't have an Air fuel mix problem. Or the denzo plugs and coils were no good.
    It could mean the ngk stuff is capable of burning the mixture and denzo is not.
    In the past ngk stuff was known to fire hotter and better.

    I've been out of the loop for a long time, So IDrK .

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  10. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Ok got out my multimeter.
    It seems the 4 new denzo plugs were no good.
    3 are no connection
    1 was 0.55 mega ohm


    Testing original plugs as well 2 sets of ngk plugs
    11 out of 12 Say between 3.7k ohm to 8k ohm most a little over 4k
    1 plug said ol

    I guess new denzo plugs Be no good

    Oh yeah question if coils
    Well the ngk were able to fire the no good plugs so I say ngk must be pretty good.
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    #30 Raphael Muscarelle, Mar 12, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2023
  11. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Well looks to me you still can tell if there is a break at least in the secondary coils and probably the primary coil.
    Seeing if the transistor works seems not so easy to tell.
    Also resistance of the coils could give an idea how much voltage output there probably is.
    But seeing an actual dead transistor it would need that testing equipment as you mentioned.
    Of course if the transistor circuit is open then one would see a broken transistor.
    All I remember about the transistor is that a low voltage will control higher voltage.

    I guess the only thing anyone could look for here is if there is an open circuit. An open circuit would definitely mean no good.
    Other resistances really talk about how much output the coil is theoretically capable of.

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  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    A first thing you notice when you look at that diagram is that it's incomplete, just a simplification to give you the basic idea of what's inside there. (A first clue is that you don't see the IGT and IGF wires actually connect to anything, nor do you see the "from battery" connection go anywhere besides the coils.)

    So if you're determined to measure the resistance of the secondary, you might be able to do that (between the spark output tip and the +B terminal, being careful to account for polarity and the diode drop).

    You haven't got any terminals available giving you measurement access to the primary. And there is extra circuitry in there the simplified drawing doesn't show. The IGT signal from the ECM is a pulse that goes high when the ECM wants the spark, so if the transistor is NPN as shown, the signal needs to be inverted. The inverter circuit, and also the detector circuit to make the IGF feedback signal, aren't shown in the drawing, and of course they are powered by the +B and ground connections, in addition to the parts that are shown.

    So the problem is not that your multimeter won't show you numbers when you poke around the terminals there. The problem only comes when thinking you can say what those numbers mean.
     
  13. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    It is simplified sure. But an induction coil is an induction coil. Be it controlled via transistor or points.
    Without examining how many windings and those details one couldn't say an approximate output to spark plugs voltage and amp.
    Sure you can't tell if the transistor is working like you can tell points are working.
    But the coils themselves you seem to be able to tell the health of those circuits.
    If a transistor fails I would think there would be a dead miss in the engine.
    But when you're talking about an induction coil a broken circuit has been known to do weird unpredictable things if it's not totally dead.
    The measuring of those circuits would eliminate the possibility of those weird things you could be seeing. Not the calculated output just the possibility.
    In the past I have seen coils that worked but when measured they was an open circuit. There would be a similar misfire underload situation. This would be due to the coil loosing voltage from having to jump a gap inside the coil itself. It really depends on where the coil is broken I side. If the break is close to the output the rest of the coil could build enough voltage to jump both gaps the one in the coil (loosing energy) then the gap in the plug. But the spark at the plug wouldn't have enough energy to ignite the air fuel mixture under load.

    My situation looks to be a broken circuit and high resistance in the spark plugs.
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  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The point is that, while an induction coil is one of the things in there, you haven't got access anywhere to both ends of it to put your meter probes on, without drilling into the potted plastic igniter.

    The only terminals you've got are connected to multiple circuit components that do not behave ohmically.
     
  15. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    If the electronics are bad in there I'm sure there would be a dead mis meaning the engine would run ruff at idle.
    So yes, correct point. Can only test what you can test.
    As stated you could use a laser heat detector on the exhaust to see which cylinder is not firing then change out coil to different cylinder to see if temperature difference follows.
    Oh yeah the manual said that.
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  16. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    You mean you had counterfeit plugs? Or?
     
  18. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Sorry the plugs don't say counterfeit in any way.
    The idea parts from Toyota are infallible is incorrect thinking.
    For example: I bought OEM engine mount from the dealer
    It had wrong bolt in it. It kept coming loose.
    Oops so much for infallible OEM parts.
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    #38 Raphael Muscarelle, Mar 16, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2023
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  19. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    So the car is now "fixed" and runs correctly?

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  20. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    There have been sloppy counterfeiters who forgot to add that.