'Praying to end abortion' return address stickers

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 5 2006, 06:48 AM) [snapback]357897[/snapback]</div>

The Church of the FSM has 501©3 tax exempt status doesn't it? So it is recognized as a religion, and should be afforded the respect given all people of faith.

 

Daniel, it's already evident. The official FSM holiday is called Holiday. Just look at how often you already hear people and even organizations wishing everyone a "Happy Holiday". Those Pirates of the Caribbean movies can't have hurt either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 5 2006, 08:26 PM) [snapback]358299[/snapback]</div>

Sadly, it does not. The IRS is clearly controlled by zealots who continue to deny us the legitimate rights of tax evasion that every church has an inherent right to. Denying us our religious tax-evasion rights is downright un-American, and if Senator Joe McCarthy were alive I'd write him a letter about it.

So I'll turn that around and say that precisely because we do not try to use our religion to cheat the government out of its taxes like other religions do, we are doing our part to support our country and are deserving of more respect than other religions.

Why should a money-making enterprise be tax exempt, merely because the "product" it sells (i.e. god) does not exist?

The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the only truly patriotic church in America! *waves flag*

 

Regarding the letter: I would find this offensive, personally. The letter was supposed to be a birthday wish for you (Happy Birthday, by the way) and adding a political message is inappropriate. These are two messages: I'm congratulating you, and don't forget that I'm anti-abortion.

I suppose there are groups that I agree with politically who hit people over the head with their messages. The religious-right zealots seem to me to be particularly shrill and overbearing - at least all my right-wing relatives are The holier-than-thou arrogance is really irritating.

On abortion, I've always felt that we humans can't determine impirically when life begins, and so the matter will always be subject to debate. Because of this, legislating the issue is wrong. However, if we shouldn't kill fetuses because they will eventually pop out as fully formed babies, then we shouldn't kill anyone. Thus we should eliminate death row, and take guns off the market.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dachshund @ Dec 6 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]358630[/snapback]</div>

There's a huge difference between killing a fetus (innocent) versus sentencing a murderer, etc. to the chair. One made a choice knowing what the consequences are....this would be the murderer if I'm not clear.

I've been watching this thread for quite a while now and have been amazed & distressed by the responses. In my humble opinion, the anti-abortion statement on a letter is fine and justified (we live in America). It may be a personal issue or she knew someone who's been through it. It is a terrible thing for anyone to go through and I don't care how independent or thick headed you are, it will catch up to you and if not dwelt with may impact your life in a most devastating way.
If you haven't read the Bible, give it a try. I recommend the NIV version. It's plain English. Most folks who shun the Bible (or Christian religion in general) haven't given it a chance. The Bible has enough information in it to really improve one's life now and hereafter.


-B

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusBrian @ Dec 6 2006, 08:16 PM) [snapback]358739[/snapback]</div>

How do you feel about executing a person for a murder he never committed? A shocking number of the people who've been executed for murder turned out not to be the one who did it. Our court system is very good at finding poor people guilty and rich people innocent, but singularly inept at actually determining if an accused person is actually guilty or not.

As for the Bible, I've read about half of it, and I know plenty of athiests who've read more of it than that. It's a fine book. It's got adventure, poetry, porn, sci fi... it's got some impressive allegories concerning the human condition, and there's much to be learned from it. But the historical and scientific inaccuracies, and the internal inconsistencies deprive it of any credibility as a source of any sort of reliable dogma.

The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a much more reliable description of the world. Plus it has the undeniable advantage of promising a beer volcano in heaven. Can your Bible top that?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 7 2006, 01:01 AM) [snapback]358768[/snapback]</div>

 

I've been away from PC for quite some time, and just read through this entire thread. To the OP, I believe you have a right to be offended, if for no other reason than you describe the sender as one who knows your positions quite well. I also believe you have the right not to be offended, if for no other reason than it is your choice how you react. We are defined by not what happens to us but how we react to it.

Two quotes on the entire thread:

"I contend we are both atheists - I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours as well." ~ Stephen F. Roberts

"God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that." ~ Joseph Campbell

However, I do admit that the path of the FSM sounds uncomfortably enticing....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusBrian @ Dec 7 2006, 08:15 AM) [snapback]358888[/snapback]</div>

Your statement above sounds like a very good argument AGAINST the death penalty, don't you think? Not to mention that, according to your religion, people are supposed to NOT judge other people, but to leave that to god.

Everything else aside, support for the death penalty by so many Christians baffles me.

Your Derek Webb link requires registration. I don't give my personal info to untrusted web sites. But if you care to post an MP3 of the song here on Prius Chat I'll give it a listen.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusBrian @ Dec 7 2006, 08:15 AM) [snapback]358888[/snapback]</div>

You musta had some weird parents. Mine taught me the logic thing, but not all that other stuff. No wonder you looked for a way out of that lifestyle!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Dec 7 2006, 03:57 PM) [snapback]359082[/snapback]</div>

I have to agree: Being a decent person has nothing to do with being religious. Perhaps the worst atrocities against other human beings have, and are, being done by pious men in the name of religion.

And, yes, I have read the Bible (I find the OT much more entertaining than most of the NT,) just as I have enjoyed reading Greek mythology, and Mahabharata and Ramayana.

I have also enjoyed reading some some of the actual historical and archaeological research relating to both the origins of the Israeli tribes (and the Bible,) and to Christianity. Perhaps you should try taking a look at some of this (I know, "logical") stuff, and who knows, you may even start questioning if Jesus was ever a real historical personage (clearly not, from the "logical" stuff I've read.)

Anyway, this may not be the forum to delve into serious discussion of religion. But the return address stickers ARE offensive when sent to someone (who is known to disagree with the stickers' statement) on THEIR birthday.

P.S. Here is an idea for a Christmas sticker, to send back to her, from the 2nd century Roman Celsus, commenting on the early Christians:

"We see, indeed, in private houses workers in wool and leather, and fullers, and persons of the most uninstructed and rustic character, not venturing to utter a word in the presence of their elders and wiser masters; but when they get hold of the children privately, and certain women as ignorant as themselves, they pour forth wonderful statements, to the effect that they ought not to give heed to their father and to their teachers, but should obey them; that the former are foolish and stupid, and neither know nor can perform anything that is really good, being preoccupied with empty trifles; that they alone know how men ought to live, and that, if the children obey them, they will both be happy themselves, and will make their home happy also."

On the other hand, we FSM followers, are the best and the brightest

 

pfff. who needs a silly thing like LOGIC?

:lol:

right.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black2006 @ Dec 7 2006, 05:51 PM) [snapback]359102[/snapback]</div>

Jesus was definitely a historical personage. But he is highly fictionalized in the Biblical accounts. The four Gospels do not even agree with each other on critical points, such as who visited at the time of his birth, or the actual date of his crucifixion. His actual words are lost, as the Gospels were written in Greek, where he spoke Aramaic, and possibly Hebrew, and much of what he is reported to have said is probably aprocryphal. But there is little doubt that he lived, preached, and was executed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 7 2006, 11:18 PM) [snapback]359188[/snapback]</div>

Actually, it is highly unlikely that the historical Jesus ever existed. What seems to be blindly accepted by the believers and the mass media as truth, has no basis in historical documents, but it is hoisted entirely by its own bootstraps through later Christian (or adulterated by Christians,) texts.

If such a personage as Jesus had actually existed, there would have been ample contemporaneous records. The Romans were meticulous bureaucrats, providing detailed records of all sorts of personalities much less notable than Jesus would have been. Yet, there is not a single contemporaneous mention of a person such as Jesus, or any of the events of his life described in the Gospels.

The main independent proof Christian scholars put forth, is the brief mention of Jesus in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, which was written just about three decades after the supposed crucifixion of Jesus. Josephus is alleged to have written two very short paragraphs, the first of which is widely accepted even by Christian scholars to be a later (3rd century?) Christian interpolation, while the second paragraph is considered by all, but said Christian scholars, to be a later insertion as well. For what it's worth, Josephus spends considerably more space describing John the Baptist, who we know is an actual historical figure with fairly significant contemporary following.

The only other independent mention of Jesus in the first century is by Tacitus, about 75-80 AD (if my memory serves me,) and while some do argue that it is later Christian interpolation, it is just as likely that Tacitus was simply repeating what a follower of the nascent Christian movement might have told him (Tacitus was born about two decades after Jesus' supposed death, so he was obviously not an eye-witness.)

As for the early Christian sources, there is really no mention of the details of the life, death or teachings of a living, contemporary Jesus in the Pauline writings, but rather an appeal to a "spiritual" Messiah, who speaks directly to Paul (through visions,) which is derivative and consistent with the other apocalyptic movements of the time. It is not until the very late first century, or more likely, the early second century, that the Gospel of Mark and Gospel Q begin to put flesh on Jesus and create the story of his earthly life, which is later more fully developed by Matthew and Luke.

If you wish to see how easily and quickly even the most ridiculous myth can be created, do a search for "cargo cults," or take a look at the history of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Both, but particularly the latter, make a very good and instructive reading

Anyway, it is getting late for me, and even though I find religion fascinating, I am not sure this is the forum for an in depth discussion)) Even if we do worship our "pod' cars....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black2006 @ Dec 7 2006, 05:51 PM) [snapback]359102[/snapback]</div>

Oh, yeah, I've read a lot of the Bible, but not all of it. In high school I saw the Raiders of the Lost Arc with 2 religious friends who had gone to church every Sunday of their lives and I had to explain to them what the Arc of the Covenant was. I found that totally bizarre!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black2006 @ Dec 8 2006, 12:11 AM) [snapback]359198[/snapback]</div>

Now, this whole concept is fascinating to me. Just a few days ago, my niece was researching Egyptian gods, so I started researching Egyptian gods, and what do you know: From wikipedia, I learned that some scholars believe that the Virgin Mary was concocted from the god Isis as a way to recruit people who did not want to give up their worship of this god of fertility. I told my sister about this, and she said that the reason the Devil has a pitchfork is because Zuess did - and the Christians wanted people to stop worshiping this "idol" so they made him the Devil. So maybe this stuff is common knowledge, but it's all brand new to me.

 

I would think, that if Jesus was indeed, a fake individual, then all this fuss about Him would beg the simple question: Why care at all?

There have been plenty of characters from ancient texts, that one could find, and not have as much as a ten minute discussion, much less argue over for centuries. Yet, Christ alone seems worthy of lengthy discussions, and arguments, over 2000 years later.

Fascinating.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black2006 @ Dec 8 2006, 12:11 AM) [snapback]359198[/snapback]</div>

After reading your post I did a Google search on "Did Jesus exist?" and I was surprised to see that, as you stated, there appears to be no contemporary documentation of his existence.

While I am not convinced that he did not exist, I am now much less certain that he did.

However, since he clearly did not do or say many of the things attributed to him in the Bible (much of which is contradictory anyway) I have never placed much importance on whether or not the Christian mythical version of Jesus was based on an actual historical preacher.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Dec 7 2006, 06:57 PM) [snapback]359082[/snapback]</div>

Take care

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusBrian @ Dec 8 2006, 08:44 AM) [snapback]359321[/snapback]</div>

Ok then, you had some weird teachers.

And my parents had a much bigger impact on how I live my life than I think all other things put together. So again I say, if what you got out of your upbringing (wherever it came from) is that you need to be number one, stomp your neighbor, etc., then I'm not surprised you looked for a way out of that lifestyle, and I'm glad you did.