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ENGINE STARTS THEN SHUTS DOWN/TRIANGEL OF DEATH

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Rick 432, May 4, 2023.

  1. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY ASSISTANCE! :) I have a 07 with 71,000. The car has been running great. Today I left the house and drove less than a mile and I felt a nudge like when the engine shuts down at a traffic light. As I approached an intersection, the engine went off and the red triangle appeared along with a few other lights. I turned around and drove home. I was driving totally on battery power as the engine did not engage. When I got home I shut the car down and restarted it. The engine came on for approximately 7 seconds and then went off. Any time I start the car now, the engine "does start" but it then shuts down after about 7 seconds. I checked the 12v battery with a battery tester said it was in good condition but it needed a charge as it was at 48%. I recharged the 12v battery and then turned on the car. All the warning lights were off and the car seemed to run normally. As I backed out of the garage, the engine shut down again and the triangle and the other lights appeared. I used Dr. Prius app which showed my hybrid battery at 30% charged. NOTE; I did a Dr. Prius battery test a month ago and the test came back in "new condition at 93%." My code reader showed code P3190 & P3191. It is a cheap code reader so my guess is there may be more codes stored. This issue came out of nowhere. The car was filled with gas two days ago and I drove it without an issue.
     

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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    the sound you think is the engine is probably just the cranking, and you have a no start situation

    watch
     
  3. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    So it's 71,000 mi this car hasn't even had spark plugs or any of that kind of stuff yet considering it comes with 100,000 mi plugs I think from the factory I would say not or has all this stuff been addressed and changed during dealer warranty used to be dealers with just whip out your hundred thousand miles spark plugs and put in some regular densos just because they could. I worked at the Toyota in the days when Platinum extended range plugs were first coming out the PQ series and in the shop that I worked at in one of the biggest Toyota dealers in North Carolina we would rip those plugs out and put in back in regular nip and denzo non-PQ series plugs I don't know what those were back then I can't remember all the numbers but it was going backwards for sure didn't really make sense to me but that was their business not mine. So it seems it's time to address some issues of the motor running proportions like the mass air flow sensor maybe the spark plugs make sure all the coils are actually in good shape take the wiper tray out and unbolt and lift the coils up Make sure they're not sitting in oil or water or anything else just basic stuff like that at 71,000 mi on a generation 2 even if it's an '09 That's a good many years of nothing done regardless of what the mileage you're supposed to reach generally people would be at that mileage by now in most parts of the car world so you're kind of a rare bird if you will I don't see many to many '08s or '09s with less than 230 on them and I see a lot of them but it sounds like that's where you need to start literally with things that can keep the engine from running not enough fuel pressure mass air flow sensor coils and door plugs things like that
     
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  4. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    13 to 15 yrs on a hybrid HV battery is about its lifetime. Sure others have gone longer but I don't think anything hugely over that generally speaking so you're right in the time frame where it's time regardless of the mileage seems to me time is more of a factor than mileage in this instance
     
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  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The trouble codes do suggest to focus on why the engine can't start. And as warned in the video bisco linked, each attempt to start takes about 1% out of the traction battery, and the challenge is to solve the engine problem so it can start without making a lot of attempts, because once the battery is too low for any more attempts, it's a lot harder.
     
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  6. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    thanks for the information. Ya, this battery was replaced by the previous owner. I am not sure if it is a genuine Toyota battery. I am not sure how these things die. Would a battery simply die like that? The articles read and the videos I saw seem to indicate it is a protracted process of worsening mileage. Mine has been in the mid 40's. But I guess it could happen. If it is a battery is would be an easier fix than something internal in the engine. Thanks again! :)
     
  7. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Do not misinterpret the above posts. Your original problem is not the hybrid battery. Your problem is that the engine did not start when the hybrid battery tried to start it. The seven seconds of "run" was merely the HV battery spinning the engine trying to start it. The codes popped up after the car realized the engine was not starting as it should have.

    Unfortunately, each time the car does the "7 second start attempt" it drains the HV battery a bit more. Eventually your new problem is going to be a depleted HV battery. I had a similar situation with a 2005 my son was driving. The throttle body plate was stuck. Pushed it open using a screwdriver down the throat and it fired right up. There are many possible causes for failure to start, even running out of gas, but you need to get that figured out first..
     
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  8. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    Thank you very much for your post. VERY informative. Maybe this is important. Yesterday, I checked the oil level and at the same time I opened the air cleaner case to inspect it to see if the filter need to be replaced. The car did not move until the next day when all of this started. I put everything back as it was.

    Thank you very much for your post. Maybe this is important. Yesterday, I checked the oil level and at the same time I opened the air cleaner case to inspect it to see if the filter need to be replaced. The car did not move until the next day when all of this started. I put everything back as it was.

    Definitely things to look at. I have no idea if those plugs etc are original. Just so odd it was fine, engine running and then died.
     
    #8 Rick 432, May 5, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2023
  9. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    Just remember you're at 71K. But for the year age of the car you should be at about 250 or so . To be honest about it I would open the air cleaner back up and get to this throttle body like biscoe or somebody up above did and make sure it moves as much as that car's been sitting and is not been driven I'd be looking for things stuck possibly things chewed I don't even know where this car is rodents that sort of thing but usually that starts a bunch of electrical problems but the throttle bodies on these car are a good place to be looking they do stick especially if they've never been sprayed cleaned or maintained and you should have 250 on the car and only have 70 so good chance things are just sticking That's a real good possibility actually fuel delivery is another. Improper fuel and improper air delivery is a definite no starter
     
  10. highmilesgarage

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    without a proper code reader, everybody's guessing... my guess is you have to buy a new car :)
     
  11. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    I ordered a new code reader (better one) and when I run it I hope to find more codes that will hopefully isolate the issue. I am not touching the car until I get that scanner. I visually looked at the engine at it appears at least one fuel injector has been replaced as the wire color is different (three are black and one is white). I have no idea about the plugs if they are new or original. Whatever happened to this car was sudden as the car has run flawlessly since I bought in last August of 2022. The engine literally just stopped working.
     
  12. ColoradoCrow

    ColoradoCrow Active Member

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    Well until your new scanner arrives if you have time I would watch these.

    I did mine with a lot of q-tips and alcohol and wiped off the throttle body plate and springs on the side really well. If you plan on keeping the car for awhile and yo are unsure of the age of the spark plugs....and can DIY I would buy OEM plugs from Olathe Toyota for $9 each and replace them.


    also check your air filter and make sure it is new and clean. I source mine from Walmart.Air Filter - Compatible with 2004 - 2009 Toyota Prius 1.5L 4-Cylinder FULL HYBRID EV-GAS FHEV 2005 2006 2007 2008 - Walmart.com
     
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  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    People often have code readers that can't get the codes from certain ECUs in the car that would help with diagnosing the problem.

    In your case, though, because the engine isn't starting, the codes that matter are the ones from the engine control module. P3190 and P3191 are codes from the engine control module, and the code reader you already have showed you those, so you've probably already seen the same ECM codes any other reader is going to show you.

    It's unfortunate that P3190 and P3191 don't really point to a specific issue for you to fix. They just mean the engine ain't working. (More precisely, P3190 means the engine was producing less than a fifth of the output expected—a fifth! that pretty much qualifies as "ain't working"—and P3191 means "that, and was trying to start at the time".)

    While the hybrid car has all kinds of new hybrid-specific technologies in it, it's also got a gasoline engine, very much like anything else's gasoline engine, and I wish it were easier, but P3190 / P3191 just mean "here's where you have to dust off your old gasoline engine skills again and work out what the problem is with that".
     
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  14. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    Thank you very much for taking the time to include these videos and for your thoughts on this issue. That was very nice of you. People on this channel are fantastic! :) For me it is odd that I looked at the air cleaner the night before and the next day all this happens. I can't find anything I did. I do believe that the engine was not running when I left the house yesterday. I did not have screen on that shows the engine working (dashboard) but when I got less than a mile from the house I heard and felt the engine try and start. It then shut down and I got the triangle of death. I am wondering if it is a fuel pump issue. I know they can simply die out of the blue. Thanks again!!!
     
  15. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    Yes run through all the basics that you can You don't have to be starting the engine every time you do something like check the throttle body Make sure all stuff is clean connections are good The flow sensors are clean all of that kind of business obviously plugs that you can probably check coils with a ohm meter or something like that to get a basic idea whether they should be working The coils aren't sitting in oil or fluid in the bottom of the valve cover just basic things like that
     
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  16. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    Thank you! The engine looks pristine. Having written that, there is no oil leaking anywhere. I checked the oil level two days ago (just before the engine event) and the oil level after 4500 miles is the same. It does not burn a drop of oil. I will clean the throttle body today and check around that area. I saw a video where a guy had a hose detach and found it after he towed it home. I gotta tell you, this is so odd. What do you think about it being a fuel pump issue? From what I've read, they are pretty hearty pumps. Waiting for the scanner to give it a test. Thanks again. Everyone has been very helpful.
     
  17. ColoradoCrow

    ColoradoCrow Active Member

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    oh Man, I hope it is not the fuel pump the pump is located inside the tank and that means an entire fuel tank replacement.

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    • I've only heard of 1 tank needed to be replaced...so that is rare. Did you double check you put the air filter in correctly and closed all the clips?
     
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  18. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    Yes, I checked that again. My thought was if the air filter is not tight, I would find it difficult to think that would do this to the car. There would be a recall by now on something like that. I purchased the throttle body cleaner. If there is an issue in that area, it would have to be something I inadvertently touched. I've been over that area few times and nothing. After I get the codes I may try and find a video to see if I can check the pump pressure just to rule it out. And yes, I watched a video on the fuel pump... how stupid, have to change the entire tank!
     
  19. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Engine no-starts have been a thing for as long as engines have, and they often are caused by the silliest stuff. An unmetered air intake leak, a hose left off, some flaky electrical connection, you name it.

    Fuel, spark, and compression are the big three things to check; then at least you quickly know which of those neighborhoods you should be looking in for the cause.

    Maybe a better first test, instead of jumping right to the fuel pump (a specific cause), would be whether the engine fires up while spraying starting fluid into the intake. If it does, then you're looking at some kind of fuel delivery issue (of which the fuel pump could be one possible cause), and if not, then you know to start looking elsewhere.
     
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  20. ColoradoCrow

    ColoradoCrow Active Member

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    How long have you owned the car? An 07 with that mileage. What were the codes in the Dr. Prius App? Maybe a P0A93? Dead Convertor Pump? I'm staying tuned. This is exactly what my wifes car did when it died. Hers had 97K IIRC. If you Ready the car without pushing the brake so it doesn't start and you have the coolant cap off you should see the pink fluid moving around inside and listen for the hummmm of the pump running. Given the age and mileage....:coffee: since we are all waiting for that scan tool....:coffee: Maybe look at that?:whistle:

    https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-drive-motor-inverter-cooler-water-pump-g902047031?c=bD0xNyZuPVNlYXJjaCBSZXN1bHRzJmE9dG95b3RhJm89cHJpdXMmeT0yMDA3JnQ9YmFzZSZlPTEtNWwtbDQtZWxlY3RyaWMtZ2Fz
    Dang $134.69 at Olathe is a steal...I PAID $183 in Colorado. Not sure where you are in Florida but you could try and get your local dealership to match them.
    IMHO If I was unsure if this part was new. I would buy one and have it on the shelf to be ready...:rolleyes:
     
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  21. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    Yes, that is something I could try. I am concerned about starting it with a low hybrid battery. I am getting close! Could the computer be telling the engine to shut down? I feel I am grasping at straws..... another thought! If this was a gas power car, I would be fine. These hybrids are very complicated. Thanks again.
     
  22. ColoradoCrow

    ColoradoCrow Active Member

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    Where in FL are you located?
     
  23. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    I purchased the car in August of 2022. The car was literally owned by the sellers aunt and unfortunately she passed.
    I did that test concerning the converter pump and it is working. I can hear and feel it on and can see circulation in the reservoir. Thanks for the post. Ps. Not sure if this is normal but when I put the car into accessary (not sure the Prius term) the dashboard did not display any ready light. I hope that is was it should ......merely show the triangle of death and all the other bad lights.

    Tampa.
     
    #16 Rick 432, May 5, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2023
  24. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    these are good guys if you need help:

    /
     
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  25. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    I've heard of them. The have a great reputation and I was going to reach out to them on Monday unless I get lucky and the car starts. :) Thank you so much for the information. I very much appreciate it. :)
     
  26. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The codes given in post #1 were P3190 and P3191. Those are codes from the ECM. They may have been read with a cheap code reader, but Dr. Prius is also able to read codes from the ECM, so dollars to doughnuts it will also say P3190 and P3191.

    Those just mean the engine isn't working well. It has to be diagnosed. Just the way any gasoline engine that isn't working well has to be diagnosed, except very sparingly of start attempts, because those depend on the traction battery.
     
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  27. Rick 432

    Rick 432 Junior Member

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    Thanks.... use of the traction battery is a big concern at this point.