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Battery heater question, what does "plugged in" mean?

Discussion in 'Prime Plug-in Charging' started by chogan2, Dec 24, 2023.

  1. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    I hope this is a stupid question, and I hope that there is a clear answer.

    If it's cold out (below 2C), and I have the car plugged in (the J1772 connector is plugged into the charge port), but I unplug it from the wall, is it possible that the Prius may still run the traction battery heater?

    I'm guessing the answer is no. Because it would make no sense to run the heater in that state. Because you can't charge the car in that state.

    OTOH, it also makes no sense to unplug your car by unplugging it from the wall. So I wonder if this something that Toyota maybe might not have anticipated?

    I guess it boils down to this: For this function -- the battery heater -- does Toyota use the proximity sensor pin to determine that the car is "plugged in", or does it use the presence of voltage on the current-carrying pins for charging, to determine that the car is "plugged in".

    No need to belabor it. As a matter of logic, the answer to the original question ought to be "no". Anybody know for sure?
     
  2. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    You can toggle the traction battery heater on, in the Toyota software menu. I believe the factory default is toggled off. Ditto with traction battery cooling. There's also the question, is the heating pad installed by default or if it's a winter package option.
    I do know that charge current is slowly ramped up, until battery reaches optimal temperatures, before full charging current is applied. The software's way of not destroying your battery.
     
  3. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    OK, I tend to be wordy. Let me boil down the question.

    Assume I have a Prius Prime, in a situation where the battery heater would normally run. (It has a heater, it's turned on in the software, the temperature is below 2C).

    Say I plug it in to charge, and it charges for a while.

    Then I unplug it from the wall. But I don't unplug the cord from the car.

    Does the absence of 120V shut off the battery heater?

    Recall that the heater is run from the 12V side of the electrical system, and that the car still senses the J1772 proximity pin in the charge port, whether or not 120V is being applied.

    Really, the question is, was Toyota smart enough to rule out some dummy (me) unplugging the car from the wall, in the dead of winter, instead of unplugging the J1772 from the car?
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    I always thought the heater ran off the wall charge, are you sure it’s 12 volts?

    I figured that’s why it had to be plugged in.
    To run off of the 12 volt, wouldn’t it have to put itself in ready so the hybrid battery can keep the 12 volt charged?
    And wouldn’t the engine have to run if the hybrid battery was low?
     
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  5. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    Yeah, me too -- why wouldn't they use 120V for the battery heater?

    But this fellow (Weber auto, from Weber State U, link below) does a tear-down, from which I learned that a) the battery heater is a 12V circuit, and b) when you plug in your car, the charger in the car has separate high-voltage and 12 (i.e., 14V) outputs. So when you plug your car in, you charge not only your traction battery, but your 12V battery as well.



    In hindsight, if they made the heater circuit 120V, they'd need a different heater -- really, a different battery pack -- in different countries. So it kind of makes sense that they'd run it off 12V.
     
  6. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    :eek::D:LOL::ROFLMAO::p Those stupid Prius engineers think of everything!!! If it is indeed a 12V warmer; I'm pretty sure it's tied into the other side of the starter relay. ie. no ready mode no heater. If not, there would be many dead Prius out there in the winter time.
    Get a jump box and give her a shot - report back your findings.

    PS. I've plugged in many 110VAC heaters into 220VAC in an emergency. The carbon pile will run hot and eventually burn-up - hopefully we can accomplish whatever we need to do before that happens... I stand there the entire time, to literally put out fires....
     
    #6 BiomedO1, Dec 25, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2023
  7. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    OK, I didn't follow that about ready mode and starter relay. This is about charging the car, when the car is (presumably) turned off.

    Let me boil down the question again.

    Your car is turned off. You're charging it, in the dead of winter. The battery heater is on. There's a power outage, and you don't bother to pull the J1772 out of the car.

    Is there any chance that the car might be fooled into continuing to run the battery heater?

    My guess is no, it doesn't work that way. I was hoping somebody knows for sure.

    Like, does somebody have a wiring diagram that (e.g.) clearly shows a battery heater relay or something, that plausibly will open in the absence of 14V output from the on-board charger?

    Addendum: OK, fair enough, that comment was helpful. The next time it gets cold enough in my area, I can put an amp clamp around one battery lead, unplug the car from the wall, and see if I can detect enough current flow to account for the ~ 200 watt battery heater.

    So I can, in fact, answer this question myself. Thank you all for your help.
     
    #7 chogan2, Dec 25, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2023
  8. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    No, power to close the charging relay - so no activation of the battery warmer, is my guess. If there's wall power, all bets are off...
     
  9. Louis19

    Louis19 Active Member

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    Yep , when you plug your car in , you charge not only your traction battery , but your 12V battery as well is correct ..I may add that when battery heater is activated in the menu and the car has been fully charged and the car is left plugged in ; if the temperature of the traction battery drops near freezing , the brick will turn on to activate the the 14v output of the onboard charger to supply 12v for the heater and also keep the 12 battery happy.
    I have notice that 6 hours after a full charge at -25C , the brick turned on and could hear a slight buzzing sound (inverter) under the hood (gen 4 prime has its battery under the hood) so power demand(200W) from the heater was provided by the plug and the 12 volt battery maintained charged by the charger
     
    #9 Louis19, Dec 26, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2023
  10. sylvaing

    sylvaing Active Member

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    That's nice to know. I'll keep the car plugged in if the temperature is going to be below freezing (so for the next two months and a half here). Even if it's 24 hours a day with no car usage (unlikely), that will just add $15 a month to my bill.
     
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  11. Louis19

    Louis19 Active Member

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    Yes , there are two circuits for the battery heater for a total of 200 watts . It is not clear when the 2 circuits are activated simultanously , could be one and if it's not enough ,the second kicks in .BTW when the battery is warmed up, the heater turns off and monitors the temp ..ready to trigger it back on if needed.Last winter we had a polar snap for 48 hours with -25C average ....stayed inside, on the third day started the car . Outside temp was back in the -8 C , the car operated in EV .
    PS battery warming for canadian models and Alaska can be operated for 30 days in a row.I do keep the car plugged in for January and Feburary with the heater function ON. Otherwise in above freezing temperature ,I unplug the car after charging.
     
    #11 Louis19, Dec 27, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2023
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  12. KMO

    KMO Senior Member

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    Note that the Canada/Alaska/Greenland 30-day heating isn't a model difference - it's a scantool setting. Setting it on in relevant areas is part of the pre-delivery inspection, but it could be switched on or off later, even though it's not shown as a "customisation" in the user manual.

    It appears that there are separate "reasonable operating temperature for 3 days" and "the car will start for 30 days" algorithms, with different thermostatic controls.

    And the 30-day one operates independently of the charging schedule and "battery heater" control - those can normally be set to avoid drawing power, but if the "Canada" mode is enabled, it could draw power whenever it thinks it needs to protect the battery.