Bush says larger Army!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 23 2006, 10:41 AM) [snapback]365998[/snapback]</div>

Why can't I ? Theres a group of LIBERALs on PC that may word it differently, but do it every day....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 23 2006, 10:41 AM) [snapback]365998[/snapback]</div>

Maybe we can all chip in and get him a dictionary and an abacus for Christmas.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 23 2006, 07:41 AM) [snapback]365998[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Dec 23 2006, 09:12 AM) [snapback]366018[/snapback]</div>

I never judge a person by his religion. I do get angry when anybody tries to push his religion on me, or when he tries to deprive people of basic civil rights, using his own religion as an excuse.

I think you are confusing the two things: judging a person; or quarreling with a person's attemps to write his personal and religious prejudices into law.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 23 2006, 11:23 AM) [snapback]366069[/snapback]</div>

France does have a problem with declining birth rates and the importation of people from a different culture to be their workers. It is a European problem that I touched on in the thread about over-population; in Italy, they are concerned that in a hundred years or so there will be no more Italians, so the government is giving incentives for young couples to breed and have children. Germany has a huge problem with this, and even the tolerant Dutch are starting to hear calls for restrictions on the rights of certain people based on their religion.

Here in America we fret about our immigration issues, but the Mexicans and central and south Americans who come here are primarily from our same culture. They have western ideals, and understand the concepts of freedom. On the one hand, I hear liberals stating that the Iraqi people will never be able to institute a democracy because of their culture, but out of the other side of their mouth stating that the importation of that culture into western society is A-OK. We are lucky that the Europeans will deal with the problem first, of course, and perhaps we won't have to resort to another European bloodbath in order to solve it. But it is a problem we will have to deal with. And it is primarily a religious problem.

Can we agree that:

1. Islam is a world religion
2. There are different sects within Islam
3. Several sects are fundamentalist and adhere to an ideology that would subvert all secular governments to religious rule through something they call sharia law, even if violence is used to achieve it
4. The other sects do not condemn the idea of sharia law as they feel the Quran calls for it, even though they do not support violent means of bringing it about.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 23 2006, 01:50 PM) [snapback]366094[/snapback]</div>

I've never said that. Just the opposite: I've said that it's the west that's imposed tyrants (like the Saudi and Quwaiti royal families, and the Shah of Iran) who've prevented democracy from developing; and that if they were allowed to have democratic governments they would not be friendly to the U.S. due to our history with them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 23 2006, 01:50 PM) [snapback]366094[/snapback]</div>

No. We cannot agree.

There are fundamentalist nut cases within Islam, as there are within Christianity and Judaism, who want to make scripture the basis of government and law; and there are goofballs within Islam, as there are within Christianity and Judaism, who are willing to kill whoever they can or must to further their crackpot goals. But these types cross all religious lines. It's a mental health issue, and a political issue, not a religious issue.

The suicide bombers are an artifact of the powerlessness of the people involved. Suicide bombing is the poor man's weapon of war. Israel has jet fighters. America has B-1 bombers. Palestine has nothing but dynamite that people can strap to their bodies. People with hate in their hearts will find a way to kill people. But you can't stop it by more killing. And the jet pilot who "just follows orders" and drops bombs that kill civilians, is no better than the suicide bomber who walks into a crowd and sets off his bomb. But the latter certainly has more courage. Both, in my opinion, are insane. And in both cases, the higher-ups who send them off to do their killing are criminals.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 23 2006, 04:59 PM) [snapback]366127[/snapback]</div>

I doubt they would have developed democracy, but we'll never know. They did have a merchant class, and that's important to the development of the concept of individual liberty. But I think they will have to abandon a strict interpretation of Islam in order to embrace individual liberty.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 23 2006, 04:59 PM) [snapback]366127[/snapback]</div>

The difference is that in Christianity there is no scripture written by the founder of the religion that says you must impose something like Sharia law. The west had to argue, debate and reason to come up with any guidance from their religion, and that allowed vigorous debate and compromise. Islam has a text written by its founder. For the moderates in Islam, their greatest challenge is to reconcile the Quran with the modern world. Without the possibility that the Prophet was wrong, they cannot condemn the idea of all mankind living under Sharia law. They must agree that it is the desired result. They will not be able to marginalize the extreme elements in their religion, as Christianity has been able to do. They cannot even argue against the eventual goal of the extreme elements. They must accept it as God's will.

Religious belief can be incredibly liberating, but the atheists are right on one point: religion can also become a prison of dogma that prevents progress. Ironically, some in this country try to be "understanding" of Islam but hyper-critical of Christianity and Judaism; yet both Christianity and Judaism has the ability to adapt and change in a way that Islam does not. (I do not put you in that category, of course, because I think you have the ability to evaluate things fairly in a more dispassionate manner).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 23 2006, 02:23 PM) [snapback]366069[/snapback]</div>

Daniel~ I must have been confused between the two, thanks..

MarinJohn~
Your wording is 100% correct I agree completely.
The thought is right on the money but doesnt always look right when I type it..

HibridTHEVIBE~
Instead of the dictionary, can you send me the hybridTHEvibe doll? you know the one, when you pull the string it shakes violently and makes fun of others .. :lol:
PS Merry Holidays to you.. B)

 

TBA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 23 2006, 06:17 PM) [snapback]366145[/snapback]</div>

Somehow, having an extremist religious zealot as president of the most powerful country in the world, does not seem to me like marginalizing the extreme religious elements.

On the other hand, none of the Moslems that I know wants to have Sharia law govern civil affairs. There's not really much difference between the extremists on both sides, and there's not really much diffeence between the moderates on both sides.

But in the West, all we see of the Islamic world are the nut-cases on the news, and this forms our view of Islam, whereas our view of the Christian world is formed by our neighbors.

I am not saying that Christianity is worse than Islam, or the the U.S. is worse than some other country. What I am saying is that people are basically the same everywhere, and want the same things everywhere. And one of the things nobody wants or will tolerate is a foreign occupying military force.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 24 2006, 08:04 AM) [snapback]366276[/snapback]</div>

Ask your Muslim friends if they think the world would be a better place under Sharia law. If they are observant Muslims, as most are in other parts of the world, they will say yes.

President Bush is not a zealot extremist; to call him one minimizes the impact zealot extremists have in the world. It is irresponsible to call conservative Christians extremists.

People are the same all over in a general sense, but we are influenced by our culture and beliefs. And some people choose to do evil. Certainly you see the difference between Dr. Mengele and Jonas Salk?

But the difference in Christianity or Judaism is that the vast majority of the religious leaders in those faiths not only condemn any modern acts of violence, but they argue against anything like Sharia law from a theological basis. In Islam, since the Prophet wrote the words they are following, there is no room for theological disagreement. While there are condemnations of violence from some peace loving Muslims, at the core they have as the basis of their religion the belief that all mankind should one day live under Sharia law.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 24 2006, 11:38 AM) [snapback]366346[/snapback]</div>

I am fascinated by your notion that you can see inside the heads of "observant Muslims." Actually, all my friends (Muslim and otherwise) are back in Fargo. But I assure you that my Muslim friends are as observant as their Christian counterparts, and the LAST thing they want is some pack of fanatic mullahs deciding what should or should not be allowed, and what punishments to give out for infractions. You really understand nothing about Muslims or the Muslim world if you imagine that just because the Quran was written by the Prophet, that there is no room for interpretation, argument, or fundamentalist vs reformist disputes. Your notion of what the Quran requires of Muslims comes from news reports about fanatic looney birds, and such interpretations are rejected by the vast majority of Muslims world-wide.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 24 2006, 11:38 AM) [snapback]366346[/snapback]</div>

Very amusing. Now I have one for you: a dog walks into a bar ..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 24 2006, 11:38 AM) [snapback]366346[/snapback]</div>

See my comment above. The sensationalist character of TV news has skewed your perception of the relative numbers of moderate vs extremist Muslims.