It's always humorous to hear the right complain that no good news ever gets reported from Iraq.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 05:24 PM) [snapback]369734[/snapback]</div>

Ahhh, the old "if you haven't experienced ______________, then you can't understand" defense.

Isn't that exactly what homosexual interest groups do?

You closet...ummmm...liberal, you!
[laughing]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 05:24 PM) [snapback]369734[/snapback]</div>

Just because you were there doesn't really make you an expert and it certainly doesn't make you lord-god-king who's opinion is instantly written in stone as divine fact. It certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than ours. If you spent most of your time in the green zone, you probably have a more empiric understanding of Iraq but unless you spent half of your year and a half there before the invasion, you probably know as much as we do as to whether or not life is better there. If I were to take significant meaning of someone's opinion about conditions in Iraq, it would be from someone who's lived there when Saddam was in charge. The perspective of U.S. personnel guarded by armed escorts is probably a lot different than that of the Iraqi citizens walking around without all of that protection, wouldn't you say?

 

I invite any who pretend they have statistical "proof" that Iraq is no worse a violent place than the U.S. to go take a two week UNESCORTED vacation there with no more than you'd take with you on any vacation to someplace in the U.S.

Then again, the depth of some of the manure piled up here in Fred's would replace 100 years of lost midwest topsoil from Michigan to Mobile, if we could find some way to spread it out, and disingenuous statistics produce the densest and most pure form of rhetorical manure yet discovered, so such claims are not wholly without merit. Just keep away from fans.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Jan 2 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]369775[/snapback]</div>

i spent about 2 months an hour south of baghdad, then about 3 months in the north, and then the final year in the Green Zone. I know hundreds of Iraqi's from all over the country. As far as whether or not life is better there, give me a break. yes I can tell you that it is with complete certainty without having been there before the war. all you have to do is be there and receive and see the thanks and joy that EVERY Iraqi you come into contact with gives you. all you have to do is sit and talk with the people and they will tell you. In Baghdad I had everything from Armenian's and Kurds from up north, guys from Basrah, as well as all different sects of muslems from baghdad working with me. Every one of them would tell you hands down that life was better.

No having been there doesn't make me know everything about it, but it sure does give me a whole lot better insight into what things are really like than anyone sitting at home watching the news or playing on the internet has. Again, I challenge everyone reading this to go find a soldier and ask them what they think. Go find a contractor who actually spent time with the people and ask them what they think.

It's those guys who have seen the kids running up to the side of the street when convoys go by waving and holding up peace signs that will give you the real story. It's the soldier that's delivered school books to children who have never had books before that will tell you the real story. It's the contractor who worked to build a power plant for a village who use to have power maybe 2 hours a day that will tell you the real story. It's NOT the guy who watches CNN and listens to the news on his XM radio while driving to work. It's NOT the guy who constantly scans news websites while at work. And It's NOT the person who's determined that just because it's a war it should have never happened.

I'd be willing to bet that nobody reading this would go up and tell a electrical engineer how electricity works if you have never worked with it. I'd also be willing to bet that nobody here would start telling someone that they are wrong about a book they had read because they saw a movie made about the book 30 years later. Would anyone here step up and tell someone they know more about New York than someone who lived there if all they had done was read some websites about the city on the internet? Well then why the crap would you assume you know more about a region and people on the other side of the globe than the people who have put in the time and made the sacrafice and commitment go to and help those people out? Because you saw some news stories about it? because you read some things on yahoo or google? because you heard something about it on the radio? give me a break...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Jan 2 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]369805[/snapback]</div>

would to take a two week unescorted vacation to north philly?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 05:24 PM) [snapback]369734[/snapback]</div>

Here's one troop who served in Iraq that is more than willing to say, "We shouldn't be there."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 08:20 PM) [snapback]369806[/snapback]</div>

As I've said before, I believe that soliders on the ground are too involved tactically to really have an accurate understanding of the strategic issues swirling about Iraq.

Yes, a kid holding a peace sign is touching and all, but...c'mon!

I'm not mitigating the importance of your service on a personal level --- not by any means --- but your viewpoint is just that; yours, and yours alone. Also (as I've said before) I'm not sure that our soldiers are any less brainwashed by the government than the citzenry is by the corporate news media.

I think you're making at least as many assumptions as those who have not been "over there."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 08:20 PM) [snapback]369806[/snapback]</div>

perhaps you should be helping with the dilapidated infrastructure and delivering books to the kids of north Philly in this case, no?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 08:20 PM) [snapback]369806[/snapback]</div>

Could I possibly hitchhike from Baghdad to Basrah via Karbala, An Najaf and An Nasiriyah, like I did from Boston, MA to Bangor, ME? What are my chances of survival being on my own, female with American passport, blond, Caucasian?
I like to be adventurous so I would seriously consider going to Baghdad for my next trip. Since you have a first hand experience perhaps you could point me to an airline that gives decent discounts. How much is the taxi from the airport to Al Kindi? On arrival, being jet lagged, I might consider taking a cab instead of hitchhiking if it is affordable.
Could I possibly pitch a tent nearby Al Kindi in Zawara Park, which is not far from the Fine Arts School? Or perhaps you know a campground you could recommend, cold showers are OK.
Are shorts and tank tops, OK? I wouldn't dare to offend within the vicinity of the religious grounds but would I be OK anywhere else in Baghdad? I have this affinity for illuminated bridges at night; do you think I could stroll along the Tigris in the evening by myself? Did that in Khartoum last summer and had no problems, would love to do it in Baghdad this time.
If you could kindly answer my questions to the best of your knowledge, I would greatly appreciate it. Glad to hear that Iraq is safe to travel now; I always wanted to visit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jan 2 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]369813[/snapback]</div>

I don't think that's right. The journalists we are relying on for much of our information rarely get out of the Green Zone ... when they do, the insurgency/militia slaughters them (we have lost more journalists in Iraq than we did in WWII, Korea, VietNam and the Gulf War, according to a commentator I heard on NPR).

An opinion that takes into account everything WE see and hear from our media, AND has the advantage of being "in country" to talk to the people there, should ... at the very least ... be given some consideration. His viewpoint is not simply his opinion as mine would be, but a more qualified opinion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 05:20 PM) [snapback]369806[/snapback]</div>

psycho

Hey thanks so much for your posts especially the parts where you defend America and say good things about her. But nothing is more likely to incite the anger of some of the Liberals here than someone standing up for the Good Old USA. It's just a fact, nothing you can do except sit back and enjoy the spectacle of the hate spewing liberal throngs here go into a dither cause someone dares to say something good about the
FLAME ON!

[attachmentid=6099]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jan 2 2007, 08:38 PM) [snapback]369813[/snapback]</div>

would that also be your opinion of the generals who are in charge of the tactics and strategies? because you won't find one of them, past or present, that agrees with your stance. So does that mean that the only way to really understand what's going on is to have all third party information that's been presented in with media bias?

you're right, the people of Iraq don't matter right? the kids and people that say thank you ARE the people who benefit. aren't those the very people we've been talking about on this thread? wasn't the whole question earlier whether or not life is better for the Iraqi's? Who are the Iraqi's if it's not the kids or the people you come into contact with in Iraq?

i disagree. my "assumptions" as you call them are not assumptions at all, but rather conclusions derived from facts and real life experiences. Your assumptions are based on stories read, watched, and heard on media outlets that are presented with bias from the get-go. You cannot and have not seen the real picture if you haven't seen it from the ground.

And I'll give you a good example. you may remember back in the summer of 2005 you probably saw on a news channel about the US destroying a bradley which had been attacked in baghdad not far from the Green Zone. It was on patrol, took some RPG's and was disabled and left. Insurgents then began to climb all over and attempt to dissassemble the bradley. they were hanging militia banners on it, taking computers and pieces of weaponry off of it. As is policy, the US destroyed the bradley by means of an apache strike on the immobilized vehicle. There were at least 2 warnings before the shots were fired. But the insurgents that didn't get off got killed when the bradley was destroyed.

This was reported on the news that 30-40 innocent civilians were killed when the US destroyed one of our own immobilized vehicles without reason. the media said that the "innocent civilians" were people gathered around to look at the vehicle, and that they weren't doing anything wrong. the story presented couldn't be farther from the truth. This whole incident happened less than a mile from where I was at, and I knew the guys that were in the squadron that was on that patrol. So who has the right information? you, who saw a rendition totally opposite to what happened in real life? or myself, who has first hand information of what actually happened from being on the ground during the time of the incident? which one of us are operating under an assumption in regards to this story?

this is just one of a thousand different stories like this that are all the same. the stories on the news are NOT presented without being twisted, and that's just a fact. as far as our soldiers being brainwashed by the media? not at all. the soldiers watch CNN in disgust as they see things like I just wrote above happen each and every day.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jan 3 2007, 04:25 AM) [snapback]369932[/snapback]</div>

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

The core values of many of these people are, essentially, such that Bush is the devil incarnate himself, a BIGGER criminal than Saddam, Bin Laden, a liar, thief, rapist, druggie, etc., etc., etc. Even if nothing but positive media kept streaming out of Iraq, they would find any one of a million negative components to spin into moutains. Remember, Bush bashing is a national past time these days, and Prius owners, for the most part, are Mac using, left leaning, pretentious, pious, "individuals", who hide behind a fascade (and not a clever one at that) of "open minded and educated", when the reverse is actually true. In reality, many are far closer to Nazi-esque fascisim than any conservative. Just search through FHOP, and you'll see for yourself, they are the FIRST ones to result to personal insults, and the FIRST to shut their ears by evoking the "ignore" function if they don't like what they're hearing. What does that say?

psychojerm, I'm personally happy to read about your experiences, and give them far more weight than any of the irrational hate-backed BILE that's frequently regurgitated regarding Iraq. The example of the armored car, was a GREAT example of just how much media spin goes on. I, unlike others it seems, thank you infinitely for being out there. It seems like half these liberals, if they had the choice/chance, would pick up an AK and join the insurgency instead of patting you on the back and saying thanks.


Wow, I can't BELIEVE the PIOUS factor of this post...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jan 2 2007, 10:38 PM) [snapback]369813[/snapback]</div>

That's just a nice way of saying "dumb grunt".

Yes, a kid holding an AK47 is dangerous and all, but...c'mon

So I suppose his experiences effectively account for "nothing", even though he's actually there, he's one the same level as anyone who hasn't been there... :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 3 2007, 08:34 AM) [snapback]370029[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, facts and real life experiences of a war-profiteering puke who stayed in safe areas. How much did you make while you were over there?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jan 3 2007, 09:41 AM) [snapback]370047[/snapback]</div>

actually I didn't stay in safe areas. I was outside the gates in the red zone plenty whether it was escorting vehicles in or recovering broken down armored cars. I made plenty of trips through the red zone to different plants, many times in soft vehicles. i rode in vehicles with ONLY Iraqi security and no other expats. i worked for a few months in Hillah on a power plant with nothing more than 4 foot tall brick and mortar walls in the middle of downtown with 3 and 4 story biuldings all around us. could have been picked off at any time. But you know what? we got nothing but support from the locals. They knew we were there to help them out and were gracious for it.

so before you start accusing someone of "staying in safe areas" you might want to know the real story. I was outside and vulnerable at least 3 or 4 days a week. we even had a local shop we used out in baghdad that was completely unprotected and we ran all sorts of parts and vehicles back and forth between there. never had one incident.

and lastly, why is my salary of any importance to you?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 3 2007, 10:09 AM) [snapback]370059[/snapback]</div>

Because that's your perspective. You went to Iraq not because of any patriotic fervor. If you had, you'd have joined the Army and walked patrol and got mortared or shot at a couple of times. Maybe then you wouldn't be talking about how great things were/are.

You went to Iraq because the money was good.

 

A couple of thoughts…

“As I've said before, I believe that soldiers on the ground are too involved tactically to really have an accurate understanding of the strategic issues swirling about Iraq.â€

I can’t speak for the folks deployed to Iraq, but before I went to Bosnia and Saudi Arabia in 1997 and 2000, respectively, I received thorough briefings on the reasons for my deployment among many others. In the case of Bosnia, I was brought up to speed on the Dayton accords, and the implementation of the provisions of that agreement, and so forth. So from an individual perspective, I can say that my experience is that I have been well–informed about the strategic context in which I serve. I can’t imagine that today’s Soldiers are being denied this information during the pre–deployment training process.

As a military officer whose mission it is to communicate with Soldiers around the globe, I take offense at the implication that our Soldiers are brainwashed: “I'm not sure that our soldiers are any less brainwashed by the government than the citizenry (sic) is by the corporate news media.â€

Let me be clear: Our Soldiers are the most highly informed Soldiers the world has ever known. They have –– by policy and by regulation –– unfettered and uncensored access to all the news reports that we back here in the States enjoy. Soldiers as a group are smart, they are savvy, and can draw their own conclusions and smell bullshit a mile away. Are there dolts and dullards? You bet! Just like in the civilian corporation I left to come back on active duty five years ago. But please do not imply that Soldiers are mindless, programmable automatons who are subject to brainwashing. (Perhaps my inference is in error, if so I apologize. It’s a hot button item for me.)

Lastly, when I came back on active duty, my income more than doubled. Now, to be sure, you know you have a crappy job when you have to join the Army to make MORE money. But does this make me a war profiteer? I think not. The Army today is a team comprised of Soldiers, civilians and contractors each functioning as part of the force. Each has a role to play and each has its strengths and weaknesses. We value the contributions of all of the people involved. Just because someone is wearing a suit to work doesn’t diminish the value of their contribution.

Dan

P.S. OK, one last anecdote: My interactions with Soldiers both junior and VERY senior had led me to conclude that the good news stories are going untold. As a former civilian news director, I can state from experience that good news doesn’t sell papers. I don’t wish for you to conclude from my statement that bad things aren’t happening. They are. But I also would like you to consider that some good has come from this action, even if you consider its origins to be rooted in misinformation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jan 3 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]370069[/snapback]</div>

Psychojerms own words, from one of his more than 1000 posts on the Iraq Investor's Forum http://www.investorsiraq.com/search.php?searchid=2201808 :
"I work with one of the other major contractors and everything I ever heard about KBR as far as pay was that they were really giving their employees there the shaft. One of the lower paying companies from what I knew. Then again, no real first hand info, but I always heard stories of people over there making like 60k-70k a year with them. " http://www.investorsiraq.com/contractors-d...html#post140250

Now, I don't doubt that being in Iraq would give you some good information as to the investment opportunities there. Nor do I find fault with that. Obviously, investment is necessary for rebuilding. The only fault I find with Psychojerm's posts is not when he relates a story about something good happening there, but when he deliberately plays games with numbers to make the situation not look so bad (i.e., http://priuschat.com/index.php?s=&show...st&p=369732 ). Accurate information on multiple fatality bombings can be found at the Brookings Institutes Iraq Index (and there have been about 1100 total bombings and 9000 resultant deaths since the war began, rather than the 500 bombings and 16000 deaths since last year that Psychojerm invents to make a rosy Iraq statistic on death rates compared to the US).

And I'm not running to the "liberal media" to get sources. The Brookings Institute. The FBI. The NRA. These are hardly liberal sources.

It's this all good/all bad crap that makes any sensible policy toward Iraq impossible. Yes, I'm sure there are good things happening but I'm also sure it's a lot more dangerous than the worst neighborhoods in Chicago, which I have not only driven through, but biked, taken the train and bus, and at times walked through. Megan drives the Prius through some of them (unescorted) every day.

Why the good news and bad news can't co-exist is beyond me. But if Psychojerm's good news is predicated on playing statistical games to make Iraq appear less dangerous than the US, then I'm sorry, I reject it and question its motives.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dan-Wolfe @ Jan 3 2007, 11:02 AM) [snapback]370086[/snapback]</div>

Another battle-hardened, combat veteran speaks about the good news about Iraq not being reported by the media.

Impressive resumé about working at the Pentagon, though. It's good to know that the DoD is monitoring priuschat for all us unpatriotic, pro-terrorist types. I suppose I should expect a friendly contact from the IRS soon...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 3 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]370124[/snapback]</div>

STALKER! [attachmentid=6105] LOLOLOLOLOL!!! [attachmentid=6106]

Wildkow



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jan 3 2007, 06:41 AM) [snapback]370047[/snapback]</div>

Rudiger = [attachmentid=6107]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jan 2 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]369813[/snapback]</div>

Pinto Girl did you get this from John Kerry?

Wildkow