Featured The EV version of the "Dust to Dust" report

& that's not the case with the ICE?

 

That's not always true as it's an oversimplification.

While everyone's driving ranges and styles and all different, if you take a true-cost-to-own calculator EV still aren't always the cheapest to own and operate even in areas where "fuel" costs are cheaper on an EV. For an example, here are the numbers when I plug in my ZIP code into Edmunds TCO:

New:

1. Nissan Versa S (manual transmission): $33,900
2. Prius $34,400
   
3. Toyota Corolla hybrid: $34,800
4. Nissan Leaf S: $42,500
5. Tesla Model 3 standard range: $54,200

Used 2020:

1. Nissan Leaf S: $26,000
2. Nissan Versa S (manual transmission): $34,000
3. Toyota Corolla hybrid: $36,600
4. Prius Prime: $36,600
5. Prius: $37,600
   
6. Tesla Model 3 standard range: $43,800
   
7. BMW i3 w/range-extender: $56,700
8. BMW i3 wo/range-extender: $45,200

Now, I'm sure there are case scenarios that someone may save more money in a Tesla than in a Nissan Versa. But generally EV's are more costly to own and operate, not cheaper to own and operate. The exception is a used Nissan Leaf. Of course that car doesn't go very far on a charge and doesn't have active battery cooling. I know it wouldn't work for me, not for that price.

 

Electric cars seem to be a poor answer to environmental concerns and may even be more expensive to own after total cost is included - insurance, initial purchase price, skyrocketing electric cost in many areas, potential repair cost etc.
There has to be a better answer to our transportation issues !

 

same thing with these;


.

 

Yes it is, and no it isn’t.
Bob specifically said “For me”.

He was sharing his personal experience and use case.

PriiPrii is the one who generallized that EVs were inconvenient ‘in general’.

Bob and I realize the experience is different for each person.
PriiPrii apparently doesn’t.

I am another person for whom the BEV is increadibly convenient.
The fueling cost, for me, is increadibly low (1/10th that of a 60mpg gas car).
The BEV has also been my best road trip car ever.

None of this means any of these will be the case for everyone.

For some, none of these may apply, for others all will, and others may have some of the benefits.

 

electric cars are the only mode of personal transportation that can run on renewables.
it will take some time, but we're making more progress every year.

 

Not just any old renewables. You don't have to use somebody else's. It can be your own solar so after it pays for itself you're basically recharging for free. Call me when that 10,000 PSI home hydrogen compressor is available.

.

 

There is.
Rebuild our cities so they aren’t centered around cars.
Invest in mass transit.

Here is the problem.

Almost no one will do either of the above in the US. The political will just isn’t there.
People will build cars that allow you to easily refuel using renewables.

 

'better' energy systems may come someday, but should we wait, and how long?

 

When the last Jet Plane falls out of the sky?

.

 

Actually, I think the primary reason that more people don't drive them is because they are afraid of change. And its provable.
Just look at the first decade or so of hybrids. They were equally as convenient as any old gas car -- because they WERE GAS CARS.
And yet most people were afraid to switch...even though the extra cost was, in most cases small and paid back in higher mpg savings.
Here we are, nearly 25 years later and there are finally lots of hybrid choices and people are buying them.

As far as inconvenience goes...A lot depends on each individuals driving patterns. I drive to work, plug in (about 2 times a week) and drive home. Sometimes I may charge at home with my free solar (panels are paid for). What gas car is that convenient? I'm guessing that there isn't anybody with a gas car that can get more convenient than that unless their job is working at a gas station that gives out free gas.

Mike

 

And there are still a lot of people afraid of hybrids

 

Ah! My bad! Yes, it's a different experience for everyone. I can't understand why so many people think they need a crossover or SUV or pickup when my sedan works fine for me.

Yes, there are things about road trips in an EV that I did love when driving the Leaf. I miss those things.

Technically no. Internal combustion engines can run on fuels made from plants and other renewable sources. Hydrogen used in fuel cells can be made from renewables. Then there are other forms of renewable power, such as sailing.

I'm not saying that any of these are better than EV technology. But no, EV tech isn't the only tech that can run off of renewables.

I fully agree here. This is what really got me wanting an EV long before Tesla even existed. I wanted to do an EV conversion so bad and power it one way or another off of solar panels. I thought I'd get around to doing that with the Leaf. I'm just not in an economic situation to make it work. But maybe some day... I'm really feeling like I should go lease one of those $19/month Leafs right now.

Like I mentioned before, gasoline and other fuels can be made from renewables. It just seems like too much work for me to plant and cultivate an entire field of grass/corn/some-other-plant and then ferment it, distill it and store it, or grow trees and chop them up for woodgas, all for driving around my vehicle.

On the other hand, with so much beetle killed forests around, doing a wood gas setup would seem logical for helping out the environment.

 

You would most likely consume more energy trying to do that than you'd get back unless you were highly efficient and had economies of scale helping you

Mike

 

Haha! I think otherwise. Wood gas has been proven for several decades. It doesn't consume more energy than you get out of it. You can get hundreds, if not thousands, of miles per chord.

 

It is not. The downsides to EVs compared to ICE make ICE seem like a breakthrough in car technology. If EVs came first and ICE came second, we would be talking about all the perks.

-super fast fill up time
-twice to triple the range
-resistant to extreme temperatures
-more powerful to tow and haul
-does not degrade overtime left sitting in a garage (talking about batteries)
-a lot cheaper initial cost
-can repair yourself most things easily

The downsides themselves are overshadowed greatly. Those being the usual "but oil changes" "but more parts to fix" or "no instant torque". The only reasonable one is the instant torque, as i hate having a torque converter robbing horsepower and creating lag. Hence why i drive a hybrid.

The other reasons dont make sense. Oil changes is once every 6000 miles i do, in my garage, for less than $20. It really doesnt bother me. And yes ICE uses more parts and they break, but i also have an understanding of pretty much all the components in my car that if something does break, i can easily swap it out. An EV is not really much different. Its more simple in a way, but if your AC breaks, id imagine its the same amount of effort to swap the compressor out. And everything related to the tires and wheels, same again.

Hey, if i missed a big downside, please broadcast it. I would really like to know what downside an ICE has that i might not know about. Maybe itll change my mind and cause me to buy an EV in the future.

This is extreme misinformation lol. Even plugging in at home, youll roughly get the same cost as a 60mpg car. Do you produce your own electricity? Thats the only way it can add up to 1/10th.

I can do the math for you. Using average costs.
Its 17 cents per kwatt hour in the US.
Gas is $3.5.
Will do this with 1000 mile range for simplicity.
Modern EV has 3 to 3.5 mile per KWH.
3.5=17c
So 1000/3.5=285
285x17c = $48 to fill for 1000 mile range.

Gas is easier to calculate. 1000/60=16 gallons required. 16x3.5=$56.

The difference is 15%. Your EV is 8.5/10th the cost of a ICE lol. How did you get 1/10th ill never know.

But ill agree with you that everyone has different preferences and some people might find EVs ideal. And my generilization is based on reality. Once sales for EVs top ICE, ill change my remarks of it being 'inconvenient'.

 

Yes, I do produce my own electricity. Solar is a great money saver in the right situations.

Your last paragraph intrigues me.
You admit that some people may find EVs ideal.
But then you state your generalization is based on reality?? Not my reality apparently

EVs will always be inconvenient for some people, regardless of their marketshare.
Just as EVs will always be ideas for others, regardless of their marketshare.

Are EVs 'inconvenient' is Norway? There, they have over 80% marketshare.
Are hybrids 'inconvenient' in the US? Here they have a marketshare of much less than 50%.
I think they are very inconvenient (as all ICE cars are).

How is it that an 'inconvenient' car (Tesla Model Y) was the worlds best selling car last year?

 

Reality of sales. If they were as great as you think they are, EVs would overtaken sales of newer vehicles sold compared to ICE. Hasnt happen yet, at least not in the US. I can understand Europe since their gasoline is extremely expensive and they can import cheap BYD EVs from China.

Norway is an unqiue example of government forcing it to happen. It isnt based on free market principles, so i wouldnt go as far as saying its convenient for them simply because its being subsidized heavily with tax incentives which makes buying a new Tesla cheaper than their ICE alternative. They are also banning petrol and diesel cars from being sold in 2025 from what i hear. In addition to the infrastructure push to electrical. Hence the marketshare of 80%.

This is ancondental, but the people i talked to that owned EVs, their main complaints was the lack of range and how AC killed range like crazy. One of them said it was the worse vehicle they driven (wasnt a tesla, but nissan EV) and got rid of it, the other had a gas car theyd drive more frequently and only occasionally drive their EV.

Teslas are good cars, and im a big fan of Musk, but i wouldnt buy one myself at the time being. I think in the future when batteries can store more, cheaper, and last longer, i would consider it.

 

Now if we look at it from a developmental viewpoint there were other downsides (depending on who you ask) that took time to overcome, especially in commercial vehicles but also in typical vehicles. At least some of these downsides would likely still be present had EV's taken off and ICE never did.

• Non-synchronized gears that mean you had to know how to match revs to shift.
• Manual transmissions altogether.
• The problems with starting the engine (including hand cranking), which took a long time to get to where we are now where ICE's startup every time without so much as a hiccup.
• Did we forget about pollution? Had EV's started first no-one would have invented the catalytic converter and other such pollution controls yet.
• Had EV's started first there would be no gasoline and diesel fueling infrastructure.

Instant torque is overrated IMO. And non-turbo direct injection (both diesel and gasoline direct injection) also have instant torque anyway. Personally I'd enjoy dirving a torque-laggy, antique car with foot long intake runners coming from a carburetor all day long if there weren't other downsides.

I believe that most, if not all of these qualms would be false had EV's started first.

• EV charging is already getting into the 15 minute range. If we had developed them for the past 110 years we'd likely have charging speeds comparable to fueling an ICEV.
  
• There already are EV's with nearly 500-mile ranges, more than a lot of gasoline cars. Had EV's had a 110 years of dominance, by now they'd all have plenty of range.
  
• ICEV's also took decades of development to become resistant to extreme temps. Back in the day you had to drain your water in the winter so you didn't freeze your engine and crack the block, and to drive around during the day you added alcohol to that water which would evaporate off by nightfall.
• EV's have plenty of power to tow and haul already.
• ICEV's also degrade over time when left sitting in a garage.
• ICEV's have a cheaper initial cost because, again, they've had a huge head start and manufacturers know all the tricks of the trade to make them cheaply. Try making some precision pistons and engine blocks with nearly no knowledge and you'll find it wouldn't be cheap.
• Repair difficulty has nothing to do with EV's and everything to do with anti-repair strategies. Did you not know about the John Deere and BMW scandals that manufacturers are getting to the point they want to put sensors on their parts so that if you change something yourself, like the spark plugs or whatever, that it bricks the ECU and you can't drive the vehicle? There is nothing inherently difficult to repair on an EV. If it were, people would not be doing EV conversions on their ICEV's.