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  1. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    In Techstream, what is the significance of these highlighted items, trying to make sense of why the engine does not start and hoping someone can shed some light for me.
    I've been troubleshooting a persistent issue with my grey Generation 2 Prius ever since I purchased it from a tow truck driver for $1,200 shortly after my accident in January 2023. The car had been sitting for nearly a year due to registration and operability issues, and I’ve been working on getting it back on the road for the last few months.

    Recently, I've been dealing with error codes that have been particularly challenging to diagnose and resolve. The primary issue seems to be centered around the P0A0F/204 error code, which indicates an "Engine Failed to Start." Additionally, I received the P0125 error code, related to the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor, and P3190, which indicates "Poor Engine Power."

    The car shows symptoms where the RPMs gradually increase for about 10 seconds after starting, and then it shuts off, triggering a red triangle warning light. The engine doesn't seem to rev up properly when the gas pedal is pressed, which led me to believe that the throttle position sensor might be the culprit.

    I've tested and replaced several components to pinpoint the issue:

    1. Throttle Position Sensor: I initially replaced the throttle position sensor with one from a dismantler, but the issue persisted. The RPMs kept climbing without regulation, and the engine still failed to start properly. I recently cross-referenced Toyota part numbers and found a throttle position sensor at AutoZone that matched my research. However, even this new sensor didn’t align with the specifications outlined in the Toyota Tech documentation I have. The readings from this new sensor were also out of spec, leading me to question whether the issue lies elsewhere.

    2. Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor: Since the P0125 code pointed to a problem with the engine coolant temperature sensor, I checked the resistance and manually bled the system again, hoping to resolve the issue. However, this didn’t make a significant difference in getting the car to run.

    3. MAF Sensor: I also checked the MAF sensor by taking it off and testing it with some power to ensure it wasn’t the problem. The MAF sensor checked out fine, which left me more convinced that the throttle position sensor or something related to it was the root cause.
    Despite all these efforts, the car still refuses to run properly. I'm beginning to suspect that there might be something more fundamentally wrong with the vehicle. The throttle body and sensors I replaced had markings from a dismantler, which could indicate that someone else had already tried to fix this issue before and failed. This makes me wonder if there’s a deeper problem with the car's electronics or some other component I haven’t yet considered.

    The frustration lies in the fact that no specific error code is being thrown to indicate precisely
    [​IMG]

    any guidance is appreciated.
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    In each of those freeze frames, the actual engine torque is negative, meaning MG1 is still doing the cranking. The cranking has been going on for 14 or 15 seconds, and by that time the ECM estimates the engine ought to be producing around 56 Nm of torque, which isn't happening. Over seven seconds have gone by with the ECM hoping to judge that ignition is happening, but no such luck.

    The target cranking RPM is 800, which doesn't seem unreasonably high, but the actual engine RPM seems to be scrolled out of your screenshot.

    The engine doesn't rev up as expected when the go pedal is depressed because it hasn't got any 'go' to give; the negative actual torque reveals that it still is just being cranked.
     
  3. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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  4. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    here are the others I grabbed with the first image I posted
    20240808_191448.jpg
     

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  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The "does this help any?" image doesn't help much, because those values seem to have been stored at a moment nothing was happening; the RPMs are all zero.

    In the other images, the ones that show the actual engine RPM from a P3191 show it closely matching the 800 RPM target from the earlier image. It doesn't look like there is anything unregulated about the cranking speed.

    That last screenshot, taken from the HV control ECU, shows a different RPM of 1280. That's different from the ECM's 800 target (but not really different from the initial RPM that I typically see right when my engine starts, so it still doesn't seem unregulated/implausible).

    Not being there with hands on, I don't think I have enough info to reconcile the RPM shown in the HV control ECU's P0A0F freeze frame with the RPM shown in the ECM's P3191 freeze frame.
     
  6. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    Understood... I'm realizing now that I have to save the data after starting the recording in techstream before I proceed to put the car in Ready mode to record everything to nail this down. I tried replacing the ECM thinking it was bad and tested the resistance to all of the sensors since P0A0F/204 diagnostics says to clear relevant dtcs first.

    upload_2024-8-12_0-43-41.png

    i need to go back and check the dates of each of the data points ive saved, the realization that under DATA LIST the DATA 3 has the data from the one recording of the car that I did. The others in OPERATION doesnt have that detailed data. You see, im realizing
    P3191 or P3190 were the codes returned plus the linear offset one I wasnt worried about yet. the only sensor whose resistance didnt match the standard was the throttle position sensor. the brand new sensor at autozone read just like the replacement from the dismantlers where only 2-4 and 3-4 was not 1.8 and higher. I plan to go through and check all sensors once more... its just... trying to track this down has taken wayyyy longer than it shouldve and hoping by recording something could help pin point this. hence my ask of what is the significance of the highlighted mustard color values in the techstream app?

    I went to look at the file I did record, and did a screen capture... does this help you identify where this problem could reside and if not, where in Techstream would you recommend I start from other than the codes? Id like to like there is a blazing indicator somewhere in this app to monitor what is triggering this DTC... right?

     

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  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Your youtube clip says "notice the RPM increasing", but I wouldn't let that distract you too much from the basic problem. If you look further down the screen, you see the Target Engine Rev go to 1300 right away when the cranking begins, and the engine RPM never exceeds that target—highest it gets is 1280, just before the start attempt gives up for taking too long. The cranking speed is simply trying to reach the target.

    You've recorded the PIDs from Hybrid Control, but you will probably get further recording the PIDs from Engine and ECT, the ECU that's directly responsible for controlling the engine and setting the P3191 code that you have. There's no mystery what sets a P3191 DTC—in gen 2 it's cranking too long without the engine starting, while the fuel gauge does not indicate empty (if it did show empty, the code would be P3193).

    Of course the bummer is there are lots of reasons a gasoline engine can crank too long without starting, and the code doesn't magically do that diagnosis for you. You have to kind of put on your old-fashioned basic auto mechanics hat and pin down the cause; as always, it will have something to do with fuel, or compression, or spark. The PIDs from the ECM might be more help.
     
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  8. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    Roger that ghostrider! I need to get back to the car so I can record PIDs from Engine and ECT.

    Why on earth the car just doesn't throw a DTC for the problem is beyond me!
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, the DTCs an ECU can throw are kind of limited to things it has some way to figure out.

    I'm sure everybody has thought "sure would be nice to have a bunch of more-specific DTCs pinning down the reason for a no-start", but the engineers would also have to figure out algorithms that would be able to recognize all the different causes, and probably build in more sensors (fuel pressure? air leak? compression? redundant MAF sensors to check their agreement?) and figure those all into the selling price, and you'd pay for those and carry them around everywhere you went and never have any use for them unless there's a no-start problem. (And get codes for the extra sensors if they go bad, and have to fix them, just so they'll be there doing you no good unless there's a no-start problem.)

    It seems like the engineers just haven't found a way to do that with a cost/benefit ratio they like. And meanwhile, basic gasoline engine diagnosis is like the least newfangled part of wrenching on hybrids; it's stuff every tech has already been trained on.

    Maybe a little further down the road they'll be building ECMs with AI chips inside that might help more with finding the root cause.
     
  10. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    If AI is involved, it might as well fix the problem after it diagnoses the issue!
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    "I would recommend that we put the unit back in operation and let it fail. It should then be a simple matter to track down the cause."