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P3191 and P0A0F/204

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by black_jmyntrn, Aug 10, 2024.

  1. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Don't over complicate things. Pull the air filter cover and filter off. Have someone do the start sequence for you while you spray starting fluid into the throttle body. See if it will actually run. At least then you'll know if its ignition related, or fuel related. Could be something as simple as no fuel. Don't over complicate it.
     
  2. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    okay sooo... turns out the fuel pump is good... i read once there is a newer ecu that has more time to allow the system to balance itself out versus throwing these codes. For the life of me I cannot find the thread with the specific ECU number... or is it a calibration id I need to apply?
     
  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I seem to remember reading about that, and it was a calibration (after all, it's a pretty easy firmware fix to just wait a bit longer before giving up). Try looking on TIS or NHTSA for TSBs that mention those trouble codes.
     
  4. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    hahaha, I'm definitely not giving up... too much riding on getting this thing running.

    I did sign up for TIS and nothing was there, will check NHTSA! Thanks for the tip on NHTSA.
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    All the TSBs are on TIS. You can also find them on NHTSA, but I don't expect anything there that's not also on TIS.
     
  6. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    kid you not.. in the two day membership, entered in the vin and all.. either I'm blind or I couldn't find it on the site.

    have you ever performed a ECU update? I've been trying to see if Techstream is all id need or is it just easier to find one with the updates already provisioned then swap it in.

    I'm also considering wiring up a switch and relay to the connectors on the fuel pump relay so I can have manual control of the fuel going to the engine to see if I can get it started that way.

    edit: I just found the below document on the NHTSA site... looks simple enough and its why I didn't find it on the actual website. It appears its through Techstream. :)

    https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10164330-9999.pdf
     
    #26 black_jmyntrn, Sep 5, 2024 at 11:14 AM
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2024 at 11:23 AM
  7. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    I would doubt that this is a "calibration fault". I looked at the freezeframe data from post #1 - it suggests that the engine wasn't really running at all.

    The A/F and O2 sensors read as "complete fuel cut" lean (ie, those are the readings you might see when the ECM turns off the injectors during high speed decel)

    The 4th page shows that the ecu expected around (+) 75 Nm torque from the ICE, but it used (-) 12 Nm (ie, the motor was spinning the ICE, not the other way around.

    If you are sure that the fuel pump operates and it has usable gas in the tank, then I'd look at whether the injectors actually open and spray.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  8. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    ohhhh... soo.. small update... I started from the beginning by checking power to the pump, when I removed the connector from the tank, I noticed the #3 pin was bend and basically not going into the connector. I applied power to test it and it didn't work.

    so I went and bought another used gas tank and before installing it, went to test it. When the 14v from a Prius Prime 12v battery when it was on didn't work after sometime I ended up trying it with a 12v putting out 12.33V. the next thing you know she was squirting with a nice stream. I proceeded to test the tank still in stalled and you know what... it was working!

    Thats why now I was thinking its the ECU needing to have the latest calibration update installed. This time, versus me hearing what sounds like the RPM gradually increasing before the red triangle of death and the care pops out of ready mode... the car had a more steady or normal room sound yet it still threw red triangle only this time Ready was still active.

    https://black.jmyntrn.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/2009_Prius_1NZ-FXE_JTDKB20U293466431_9-4-2024-63330-AM.csv

    that's the file from my techstream as of yesterday.
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, I do vaguely remember seeing a TSB that did refer to P3191 under difficult starting conditions (like very cold weather), and there was a calibration update listed, and IIRC all that was changed in the firmware was a few more seconds were added to the timeout for the cranking attempt. I don't remember the TSB number offhand, sorry to say, nor do I remember for sure if it was for gen 2 or another generation.

    But anyway, that seems like a fix for a problem where the engine usually starts, or almost starts in hard conditions, and just needs a few more seconds' grace. But your Techstream captures keep looking like there aren't any signs of life, like the engine is still being cranked (−21 Nm torque) after 13 seconds (think about starting an engine, and count off 13 s on a stopwatch—that's a long time to crank). And I'm not guessing September in LA really counts as "difficult starting conditions".

    This doesn't seem to me like the kind of borderline situation where allowing a few more seconds to crank would make it all better. Rather (as a US Robotics modem support guy said to me on the phone once): "sounds broke."

    The fuel pump is supposedly running, and the injectors are supposedly being pulsed at 8.96 ms, but the short fuel trim is at +20.3% and the bangity-bangs are not happening.
     
  10. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    okay hold on... sounds like you are saying the motor I have in there is bad... the jdm motor that I just installed.... hahahahahahaha you know, I tell people the last few years I've been doing this prius stuff... its like someone has a voodoo doll of me and they are a powerful force. I just wonder if the doll is bald like me or if it has hair.... woooo sahhhh...

    so no bangs, leads me to think I should put new spark plugs in! Ive just wanted to get it started and running then I planned on swapping in new plugs, injectors and the rest of the sensors. What should the short fuel trim be at?
     
  11. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    If the engine is running "perfectly", then the upstream A/F sensor reads (around) 3.3V, the downstream O2 reads around 0.6-0.8V (with a healthy - lit off - cat), and short + long fuel trims near 0%.

    The freezeframe data still shows "no" fuel getting into the engine. (crazy lean). How about them injectors? Maybe get a fuel pressure gauge installed and see what the pump can produce.

    Do you have another Gen2 Prius handy? Easiest way to figure out what's wrong on your broken car is to compare it with "a known good example" from a working car.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    #31 mr_guy_mann, Sep 5, 2024 at 5:19 PM
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2024 at 5:29 PM