The Chevrolet Volt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mehrenst @ Jan 8 2007, 11:37 AM) [snapback]372476[/snapback]</div>

Because diesel just isn't worth the trouble compared to gasoline. Diesel has virtually no advantage when used in passenger autos. Ever spill some diesel on you shoes, hands, or clothes? Don't even think about continuing to work. Even the smallest of fuel leaks in a diesel car parked in your garage quickly permeates throughout the house. The price has been much higher than gasoline for many years usually negating any fuel economy increase. Availability can be an issue. Diesel engines are more expensive to produce, they are heavier, and are much more difficult to repair requiring more specialized tools and skills the typical backyard mechanic does not possess. Diesels pollute more than gas engines and require more expensive and sophisticated systems to clean the exhaust.

Micro-gasturbine? A dismal application for a ground based vehicle. Filtering for the air intake would be complex and require constant attention, the very high cost of a gas turbine even produced at high volumes would be phenomenal, they are VERY noisy, fuel economy would be very poor, and then you have the problem of converting 10's of thousands of shaft RPM into usable energy for a automobile.

I believe the Volt will come to fruition as planned and GM will beat Toyota to the PHEV market. But pricing and quality of the final product will also be major factors as to whether the public will make the Volt as successful a car as the Prius.

There are lots of "neat" concept cars and ideas out there. But reliability and most importantly price are the deciding factors as to whether the public will make such a car a success.

Rick
#4 2006

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 8 2007, 09:48 PM) [snapback]372872[/snapback]</div>

At least there is someone who is objective on here about the Prius.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clearview22 @ Jan 8 2007, 10:04 PM) [snapback]372883[/snapback]</div>

What does"GM does not fit with my ideals" mean? And how exactly does Toyota fit your ideals better than GM? What are those ideals? I will wait patiently.

 

Apparently because they need/want the higher energy and power density of Li-ion: http://spectrum.ieee.org/jan07/4848/2

I love my Prius, but the writing is on the wall. Better batteries will send the HSD into retirement.

Vote For Volt at http://tinyurl.com/yy795t

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(viking31 @ Jan 9 2007, 08:41 AM) [snapback]372975[/snapback]</div>

As a former diesel owner, yes to all the above. Plus the weight of a bigger battery and starter. And having your fuel gel when it gets cold, if you're not careful.

As I understand it, the main reason you go farther on a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gas is that there are more (k)calories - more chemical energy -- in a gallon of diesel. That's roughly 20% more, if I recall correctly.

No surprise there. I mean, diesel fuel just plain weighs more than gas -- about 7lbs/gallon, versus about 6 lbs/gallon for gasoline. (Weight varies with formulation.) So, there's more there, there, in a gallon of diesel.

But nothing is free. That higher energy density per gallon and higher weight per gallon had to come from somewhere.

Well, it comes from the crude oil. No surprise that it takes more crude oil to produce a gallon of diesel than it does to produce a gallon of gasoline. These sites say 25% more:

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_...el-dilemma.html
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/d...ine-article.htm

(Now, by contrast, other sites say that less energy input is needed to refine the gallon of diesel. So diesel takes more raw material but less energy to produce than gasoline).

Anyway, the rule of thumb these wesites suggested is that you should knock down the diesel mileage by about 20% (1/1.25) to get it on a level playing field with a gasoline engine, in terms of crude oil used.

In terms of total GHG impact, the adjustment appears to be roughly in that ballpark. It would take some studying to pin it down further. But it appears in that ballpark.

Putting that another way, if a typical Prius hwy mileage is 52 mpg, then I'd need to see 65 mpg hwy out of a diesel to judge that the diesel consumes no more crude input, and produces no more GHG ouput, than the Prius. Show me that diesel and I'm ready to consider it. Otherwise, I'll stick with the Prius.

 

Vote early, vote often: here's another "Vote For Volt" site which provides instant feedback: http://www.gmsurveys2.com/se.ashx?s=7C7FD94F76D8CE27

Taking GM at their word, this thing gets 50 MPG *without* using the heavy, expensive (and non-existent) battery. GM ought to forget about Li-ion for the immediate future and start building a version of the Volt now with a smaller and/or NiMH battery. They'd have a fast, low-emissions, fuel-efficient car on the market sooner rather than later. I predict that they won't because they think it would not make them look green enough: they will think it is the functional equivalent of a Prius and thus not provide sufficient market differentiation and mind-share, or some such marketing bafflegab.

 

Wayne Gerdes is at the 2007 North American AutoShow in Detroit. Thought I'd post a snippet of the GM Volt presentation he posted at CleanMPG:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Wayne Gerdes")</div>

My 2 cents: If the Volt hits the market place and meets expectation, there would finally be a domestic car competitive with the Prius in performance and greeness. I hope it works, but the past has given many to wonder if they are serious.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 8 2007, 09:48 PM) [snapback]372872[/snapback]</div>

I'm 6'1" also, and haven't had any problems with adults sitting behind me. My previous vehicle was a small pick-up, however, so perhaps I'm used to keeping my seat less reclined, and that's the difference?


Malorn, I'm guessing you probably don't have any more information, but do you happen to know if the Volt is going to keep the more aggressive styling it seems to have now, or will it look like a more standard passenger car when/if it begins production? I really like my Toyota and am pleased with it. My grandfather is also impressed with my Prius, and with the concept of hybrids, but he's bought Chevrolet vehicles for years and wants to stick with them. I don't think he'd want something that looked like a roadster, but if there was a Chevy passenger car hybrid, I know he'd be really interested, as he's inquired about domestic hybrids before. I hope this sees the light of day.

 

Another article on the Volta just came out in Newsweek.

It's Electric
Hoping to catch up to Toyota, General Motors is unveiling the Chevy Volt concept car, a plug-in hybrid that runs on pure electricity. But will it actually hit the highway?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prince of Jupiter @ Jan 9 2007, 10:30 AM) [snapback]373034[/snapback]</div>

The Chevy two-mode hybrid Malibu will be launched in the spring of 2008.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 10:46 AM) [snapback]373050[/snapback]</div>

Thanks! I'll look it up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 11:46 AM) [snapback]373050[/snapback]</div>

This being Chevy, the question isn't "Will they screw it up?" - the question is "HOW will they screw it up?"

Predictions, anyone?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jan 9 2007, 10:53 AM) [snapback]373056[/snapback]</div>

At least there isn't any anti-chevy(GM) bias on here. :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 8 2007, 09:48 PM) [snapback]372872[/snapback]</div>

Just how far back did you push your seat? Do you have the pre-2004 model style, before it became mid-size?
Granted, I'm only 5'11", consider half of that difference is in the legs, so I have another inch than you, but I've never even felt somebody bump the seat back except for little kids swinging their legs. It compares favorably to the Honda Accord, much in line with my old Subaru Outback, which I bought in part because it would fit a rear-facing car seat without adjusting the front seats.

I'll readily admit the Prius doesn't meet everybody's needs, but lack of cabin space is not one of its problems.

Back on topic, I hope GM pulls this off. People here do tend to have an anti-GM stance, probably because of what they did with the EV-1, but we should remember Toyota wasn't that much different with the EV-RAV4. They did sell a few, not just lease, but they got out of the market as soon as they could and joined the lawsuit against California. I think current management is much more recognizant (why is the spell checker complaining about that word?) of the dangers of GHG and peak oil and has a plan for addressing that, selling SUVs only to meet consumer demand, whereas American car companies want to promote the SUV market and actively demote the small and mid-size car market. That's what we don't like, when they talk down about hybrids and sensibly-sized vehicles. I think GM will be forced for marketing reasons to pull off something like this, but this time the demand will be proven and they can't pull another EV-1 move on us.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Jan 9 2007, 11:34 AM) [snapback]373089[/snapback]</div>

Nearly all the major automakers with a significant share in the US market are represented against California.

Exception: Honda

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 8 2007, 11:48 PM) [snapback]372872[/snapback]</div>

That's funny!
I'm 6'-5" and I've had equally sized persons sit behind me and they have room to spare. I don't know what kind of mis-shaped people you ride with but they ought to return to what ever planet they came from. :^)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 09:36 AM) [snapback]372987[/snapback]</div>

I'm glad I decided to stay in the office for lunch. I went to Toyota dot com, Chevy dot com, and Pontiac dot com to look up their rated dimensions, in particular F & R legroom. If I have made any errors, inform me at once.

Prius 41.9 F 38.6 R
Cobalt 42.0 F 32.8 R
Impala 42.3 F 37.6 R
G6 42.2 F 37.6 R

I keep my front seats all the way back, and the few times I've had passengers from the office - going out for lunch - they've all commented on how *roomy* the rear seat is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 11:46 AM) [snapback]373050[/snapback]</div>

I'm eagerly awaiting it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]373060[/snapback]</div>

I wasn't biased against The General until I ordered that very expensive 2000 GMC Sierra SLT extended cab sportside box 4x4. For the sake of this thread I'll assume you really are a "Chevy dealer" and not a scrawny pimply-faced 17 year old living in his parents basement and hiding from the Real World.

I had more than my fair share of problems with my GMC truck. I also had a few issues with my Prius. Want to know the difference in why I'm still committed to my Prius and really hate The General?

Dealer attitude.

The Toyota dealer I purchased my Prius from has always – always – bent over backwards to keep me happy. For example, when my Prius conked out on Kenaston and I had it towed to the dealer, they immediately arranged for a loaner. It was a Ford Focus. I glared at the manager and said “There is no f’ing way I’m driving that s***box.â€

He took the Focus keys from me, reached into his pocket, and handed me the keys to the Avalon demonstrator he was driving. He also gave me a voucher to go to the Shell station closest to the dealership, to top it off, and said don’t worry about how many km’s I put on the Avalon.

In contrast, every single issue I had with my Sierra the dealer and especially the service manager were absolute complete dickheads in every sense of the word. Now, I’m a big husky guy, folks at the office call me “Mr Incredible†but in a very good natured way. Both the dealer manager and service manager were scrawny greasy sneaky little guys who came very close to having me pop them in the mouth.

My word-of-mouth “advertising†alone probably cost them quite a few sales. They should try to sue me, I’d love a noisy public circus at their expense.

However, when I got that tank of bad gas in Red Lake Ontario, I stopped at Kantola GM in Kenora. They were like my Toyota dealer, bent over backwards to help me. When I mentioned all the issues I had with my truck, they claimed they would have gotten a new truck for me. They readily acknowledged the problems with knocking Vortec motors, bad drum-in-hat parking brakes, etc.

I’m guessing your “dealer†attitude is more in line with the jerks who sold me the Sierra.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 9 2007, 12:39 PM) [snapback]373137[/snapback]</div>

Why would you say that. Our CSI scores are among the highest with every manufacturer we represent especially GM. There is never an excuse to let any customer leave unhappy in our organization. Ever.

Somedays I do wish I was 17 years old again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 01:47 PM) [snapback]373145[/snapback]</div>

Well, care to explain why official responses from GM Canada claimed the engine noise in my Vortec 5.3 was "normal," and that burning one litre of oil every 1,000km was also "normal?"

Care to explain why GM Canada also told me that having to adjust the rear drum-in-hat parking brake every 6-8 months was "normal" - therefore I had to pay for it - maintenance and NOT a design flaw??

As far as the dealer that sold me the Sierra, all of them deserve to be strung up. Don't worry though, my negative word-of-mouth cost them PLENTY of sales.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 9 2007, 02:51 PM) [snapback]373150[/snapback]</div>

Care to tell me why my Toyota dealer told me that it 'wasn't their problem' when my 2 day old Prius died? Care to tell me why the only thing Toyota did for me was get my rental upgraded to a Camry (as opposed to an xA)?

Answer: Some dealers suck. And Toyota sucks just as much as GM with customer satisfaction (See: Toyota And Sludge)