2014 Prius V groans, pops and thunks in the front end... why?

I have a 2014 Prius V and it has some issues related to the front end that I can't figure out....

Problem #1:
There is a slight 'tick' when I decelerate moderately aggressively, and a very audible 'thunk' when I then accelerate (for instance, at a stop sigh). I've not been able to nail this down. It is almost as though there is a bushing that has disappeared and the 'post' is now free to move around in the cavity previously occupied by the bushing. I cannot discern any play in the wheel when I jack up the car. The vehicle does have fairly recent (off-brand) wheel bearing and axles. The bolts for the wheel bearing carriers are tight.

Problem #2:
If I am sitting stationary and I turn the steering wheel back and forth, there is a significant amount of groaning and slight popping noises from the steering setup. It is very similar to what one would hear with low hydraulic steering fluid, but the Prius V does not have a hydraulic steering system; it is all electric. And, again, when I jack up the car and try to detect play in the wheels, I can't detect any.

History:
The vehicle has about 128K miles on it. The strut boots have completely disintegrated and I have some suspicion as to whether or not the struts are the source of the problem(s). I have been mulling over whether or not I should proactively replace the front struts, but I would like to be confident that this is actually the problem before I perform that work. This thought isn't because I'm against doing the struts, but more around the fact that I conceptually feel I should be confident I'm resolving the source of a problem versus the "throw new parts at it and see what works" approach.... Similarly, I'm wondering about the ball joints, but, again, there is no appreciable play in the wheels (left/right or up/down) when the vehicle is jacked up.

Background:
I am not a professional mechanic, but I do hold my own very well. I've done the wheel bearing on the car because they were definitely bad. The axles were replaced at the same time because the axle nuts buggered the threads. I've done ball joints on other vehicles because the boots were completely gone, and also suspension bushings on other cars. The Prius V is different than the Mini Cooper, however, where I can see how the "thunk" (problem #1) would come into play. The lower control arm looks to be fairly easy to visually determine if the bushing is bad, and it doesn't appear to be.

Any help is greatly appreciated. I've tried to be thorough with the description, but if there is something you'd like me to clarify or test, just let me know. Thanks!

 

Great... thanks for the response. One question, though. Is that an issue for *both* problems or only #1 or #2?

Regards.

 

I bought the car about 3 years ago with 100K miles on it. The dominant issue at that time was an increasing growl from a wheel bearing that was going bad. I replaced that and the axles (latter as a result of the nuts damaging the threads). After this, I had a tick/thunk on acceleration (problem #1, not #2). That was an odd one because I torqued (and re-validated) the hub bolts several times. I finally took it to a "real" mechanic who said the bolts were too loose. I asked him what he torqued them to (and mentioned the specs in the service manual, which he also thought were pretty low) and he sheepishly said, "we just used an impact wrench on them...." I wasn't thrill with that answer, of course, and yes... these were very well rated mechanics and I can't say I ever had any issues with them in the past. Still, I am kind of a stickler for torquing correctly.

Anyhow, the thunk on acceleration came back eventually (maybe 8-12 months later) and I checked the hub bolts. They were still tight. Roughly the same time, the groaning and popping (hard to explain the exact noise) started. Both have, frankly, gotten progressively louder. My initial thought was that it was the struts as the rubber boots are gone. But, the car isn't mushy at all when driving nor when I push down on the front wheels. Although the struts may well still be bad, I don't think that is the issue here. I've tried lifting the car and seeing if there is horizontal/vertical play in the wheels, but I haven't been able to discern any in the past. I have not tried that same test since the noises have become more prominent....

At this point, the noise is loud enough that it really does need to be addressed. My wife no longer wants to drive the vehicle and I have to agree that I am not comfortable either. It isn't that I think it is going to fall apart, but something clearly isn't correct and that becomes a safety concern. I can start replacing parts, but that isn't the best way to address the issue. I'd rather have a more logical direction and plan of attack, meaning some identification of logical parts to replace (or diagnostic steps to identify the faulty part(s) and then replace that/those.

I have ordered some sway links per rjparker's suggestion. I have some surgery coming up and some home construction going on at the same time (it has been the summer from hell) so it might take me a month or more before I actually get to the link installation though.

 

No. There is no evidence of a collision, and the CarFAX was clean. The previous owner was the original purchaser of the vehicle and a fairly wealthy physician. Although that doesn't mean a ton, my strong suspicion is that she/they would have gotten rid of the car in a significant accident if there were any. It was dominantly used as a freeway commuter for about a 30 mile (one way) trip. This was a private party sale, and the vehicle had been regularly serviced at the local Toyota dealership. When I purchased my other V, I did so from the same dealership; I had my vehicle serviced there during the warranty period and, although expensive, I never had any complaints with their competency.

 

So... bit of an update here...

I ordered some links and they arrived today. However, I don't think I'll need them. Over the weekend, I decided to pull the wheels off again and give it another look see. The links look perfect, the boots are not broken, and there is no unusual play in there, so I'm pretty sure they are fine (but not positive). I looked at all of the other interface points and I couldn't see anything there either. The brakes can rotate back/forth and hit the studs, and I've wondered if that could be a problem, but this isn't anything different than you'd find on any other California (low rust state) car. Plus any new car would be fairly loose. Once the wheels are torqued to 76ft-lbs, I can't see that that would be a problem (not to mention the fact, that as I start, the brakes are disengaged so there would be no "thunk" there.

What I did finally do was manage to snag my friendly wife. She always seemed to be unavailable when I was looking at this problem before. Anyhow, I had her rotate the steering wheel from stop to stop. Although not as pronounced as when the car is on the ground, and the suspension is loaded, there was definite groaning coming from the struts. I traced this to the top of the strut. As it moves around in the carrier, it has a very distinct, "I'm sleeping... leave me along... go away!" sound eminating from that area. So, I'm back to thinking that my problem is in both struts (both moaned and groaned more than my kids when they had to do homework!). I don't know if the thunking is also part of the struts, but given that I'll be replacing the struts, I guess I'll find out.

The downside to all this is that I guess I'll have to do a wheel alignment now. That isn't the worst thing in the world to do if my problem gets fixed. Anyhow, that is the latest on the problem

 

I have both a 2012 (155K) and a 2014 (125K) and both have shredded rubber boots. Neither has any visible leakage, but only the 2014 groans really loudly when turning the wheel from stop to stop. It is pretty bad. I actually don't think the issue is so much the strut but the rubber carrier on TOP of the strut. Unfortunately I do not have the tools to remove the spring, so I cannot replace the rubber/top. It is easier to replace the entire strut. The second part of this is that I'm *hoping* the thunking (which has gotten quite unnerving) is still of unknown origin. THAT I want to fix. I no longer take the vehicle on the freeway simply because I am not sure where it is coming from. I'm hoping the strut replacement will magically fix the problem but??? I guess it is possible that the top carrier rubber is so buggered that this is the source of the thunking. I can't really see much up there. I haven't take the wiper/tray off to see if there is anything visible from the top because I really didn't expect this to be the area of the noise until last weekend when my wife turned the steering wheel.

 

I'll do that again, but I've tried to identify the source before without great luck. When I was trying to get a better location this weekend, it definitely seemed as though the noises were far more pronounced higher up, and even louder when I stood up and was next to the top plate in the engine bay. I also took a diagnostic stethoscope and placed it against several areas (ball joints, etc) that I suspected could be problems. Although I'll not say my process was conclusive, the noise certainly seemed to be emanating from the top of the strut.

I think what worries me is that everyone thus far has been suspicious of this determination. It makes me feel that I must be missing something. That is especially true because what I'm suggesting here isn't just a single strut failure, it is an identical issue with BOTH sides. That worries me. If you all, who I readily admit probably know more than I, are suspicious, it seems statistically unlikely that TWO struts would fail in the same car, at the same time.

 

" I also took a diagnostic stethoscope and placed it against several areas (ball joints, etc) that I suspected could be problems. Although I'll not say my process was conclusive, the noise certainly seemed to be emanating from the top of the strut."

I did exactly that with the front end off the ground (but not with the vehicle down). When I pressed the stethoscope against the top mount for the strut, the noise was louder there than any other place where I tried the same experiment (ball joints, steering gear, etc). I don't want to say it was an absolutely definitive test, though. I definitely could hear the groan/click sounds throughout the whole system, but it did seem to be louder on the top of the strut.

I'm kind of treating my situation as two separate problems, but I suspect they are linked. The groaning/popping type sounds associated with steering are one problem. The thunking on moderate/heavy acceleration (and periodic slight thunk on deceleration) is a second problem. The best way I can describe the thunking is to envision a post that normally has an isolation bushing around it that has disappeared. Imagine the post has a natural proclivity to stay in the middle of the hole but when something like acceleration happens, the post moves. If there is no grommet there, the post can hit the metal frame. That is the best way I can describe the sound I am hearing; it is definitely a metal on metal thunk. It is not a rattle; it is a single thunk/click and very audible both in/out of the car. Unfortunately, it requires me to drive, which complicates observation, etc. Pushing the car back/forth isn't sufficient to cause the noise.

Anyhow, as I said, although I suspect the two problems are related, I am treating them as two independent issues for now.

Thank you again for your continued thoughts and suggestions. I really do appreciate the help. I also am a firm believer in self-help, so I will post whatever I ultimately find as the source of the problem and its resolution. That way the next poor soul that runs into something similar will benefit from this thread.

 

I hate to do this, but..... I have some conflicting information that is very confusing but also very relevant....

So, when I made the observations about the noises emanating from the top of the front struts, that was with the front end of the car off the ground and my wife turning the wheel from stop to stop. I took the windshield wiper tray off and thought I'd try all of this again with the car OFF a stand... Guess what... nothing... quiet as a whisper. I thought, well, maybe I should move forward a bit. So I put it in gear and moved forward a foot and tried again. I got the creaking, but NOT where I expected.... It was from the *back* not the front.

This has me thinking that my thought that the noise was from the front struts may have been founded in flawed diagnostics because there was no load on the frontend. WTH. I still think the thunking is from the front, but maybe not the groaning.... And there is more. I seem to need to have the car in gear. And, even more.... It happens when I have my foot fairly lightly on the brake. I'm on level ground so I don't need to be stomped on the brake. When I'm lightly on the brake (more than enough to keep the car from moving though) I get noises from the back. HOWEVER, if I stomp hard on the brake and move the steering wheel from left to right (or reverse), I'm not hearing the noise.

I honestly don't know if this is a new experience, or an old experience and I just haven't been stomping on the brake. I'm completely revisiting where this problem may be situated and that is a turn I did not expect to make....

But this brings forth a new question for you all.... What would cause noises from the *back* end when I lightly step on the brake, not moving, and I move the steering wheel between the stops?

 

OK! I'm not totally insane, thank goodness!!! I decided to take the car for a short drive around the block a few times. I stopped at a local parking lot and... Oh! the noise in the front end again. This time, I had my stethoscope ready, and easy access to the top plate of the strut (windshield wiper tray is removed). I didn't even need the stethoscope though. Simply putting my fingers on the top of the strut and then turning the wheel was enough to distinctly feel the groaning/creaking in direct synchronization with the audible event. So.... I'm not nuts! I may be a little confused, but not nuts.... I *think* that the strut noise is somehow inexplicably tied to sitting for a while (?) or perhaps angle of the car, and the rear end might just have been noise from not having the brakes tightly applied. I'll cross that bridge later (rear end), I guess, but deal with the front end first. And, while driving around with the windows open, I heard the thunk again. It definitely seems like that is in the front...

AFter I got home, I listened to the noise by contacting the end to the top of the strut. It was VERY pronounced. As an experiment, I tried applying some wd40 just around that area, but that did absolutely nothing. I felt the outer tie rod and the tactile pops/creaks were nowhere near as pronounced as when I felt the top of the strut mount.

 

Thanks Georgina... I was thinking the same thing, but it is nice to have some confirmation. I am *hoping* that this also resolves the loud single "clunk" when starting (and the less pronounced noise that occurs during deceleration)

That rear end sound I think was a ruse, but boy did it throw me for a loop. My diagnostic observations are generally pretty good, so it threw me for a loop.

Yes, Toyota struts are a pain and not realistic for me as a result. I bought KB units and they were delivered yesterday. I hope to install them today or tomorrow as I have surgery on Monday that will give me weight restrictions for a few weeks. The pain here is that I'll have to get the car aligned now. I'm not sure when I'll get that done.