Cold start : cuts out after ~7 seconds. Did this once every few months, but now totally dead.

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by landspeed, Mar 17, 2026 at 3:16 AM.

  1. Trombone

    Trombone Active Member

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    One factor landspeed has mentioned gets my attention: the vehicle is operating (barely) without a catalytic converter. There are sensors fore and aft of the cat, so I would suspect something is going on with the exhaust system. I think that would account for many of the symptoms described.

    As for the MAF sensor, just because it looks clean doesn’t mean that it is!
     
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  2. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    Yep; the forward sensor is a requirement, the aft is the feedback loop to manage electronically controlled fuel mixture. The ECU will run the engine for a bit on base factory settings - then it should throw codes and possibly throw it into limp mode. Don't know how they have it wired up to spoof those sensors.:(o_O:oops:
     
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  3. ronlewis

    ronlewis Active Member

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    I bailed from this after giving my advice, which was essentially the same advice you've received multiple times now. I would add that there are gas tanks available here in the US from dismantlers, most of which are in California. Check car-part.com to find all of those. I've replaced the tank in one of mine with a used tank and haven't had any new problems.

    Just because you get some gas from the pump doesn't mean you get enough fuel pressure to not cause problems. And, did you check the fuel filler neck like I told you. Maybe you don't have snow, but these are old cars and it could still be rusted through. Literally takes 30 seconds and no tools to eliminate that as an issue.

    I also am leery of advising on the early Japanese models. Not sure how different they may be, especially the ECU software.

    Otherwise, you seem to simply have typical ICE issues. Do you have a service manual so that you can follow standard diagnostic procedures? If not, go to http://www.charm.li and download it. They only have the 2001 and up manuals, so again, not sure any differences with your Japanese model which may have come out before that.
     
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  4. landspeed

    landspeed Active Member

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    I do agree fully! I’m doing the spark plugs because I know they need to be done (I have done other maintenance, but these are the same ones that were there in 2019 when I got the car!); also, I don’t have my spark plug socket, so need to get one of those anyway!

    I suspect a coil has gone bad (given how sudden it was), it removing and inspecting the plugs will also be useful (especiallly as there is unburnt fuel (smell from exhaust) and the sound of detonation under load
     
  5. landspeed

    landspeed Active Member

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    I did check the fuel tank and fill pipe - it hasn’t rusted through, and there were no fuel leaks when filling the tank;

    I am hoping it isn’t the fuel pump; my plan is to replace the plugs as they are old (and given gasoline smell from exhaust and detonation suggesting unburnt fuel). Once those are replaced I can try disconnecting coils again if the issue remains. Replacing the plugs rules them out as an issue (also, they are well overdue for replacement). Also I don’t have the correct spark plug socket, meaning I need to fo into the auto store anyway, and I also get to test the car with a cold start on a cold-ish morning (8am, and yesterday’s start was around 3pm).

    Also, I don’t have a tool to test fuel system pressure available; the best test I can do without the tester is to see if the car can start and drive (it can). I’ll get a pressure gauge from the auto store if needed (if replacing plugs doesn’t fix it, and if all plugs are giving a spark (with the spark testing tool I am also going to buy).

    I did note that the car can still accelerate fairly well (very brief test), which to me suggests there is enough fuel system pressure to produce a fair amount of power from the engine, yet there is a misfire at idle and a misfire under load;
     
    #25 landspeed, Mar 18, 2026 at 3:03 PM
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2026 at 3:15 PM
  6. Trombone

    Trombone Active Member

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    For the spark plugs, I strongly recommend that you use ONLY the OEM Denso iridium-tip SK16R11, as listed in the owner's manual. The manual also lists NGK iFR5A11. I have used none but the Denso, and am now on my third set @176K miles. The manual calls for changing plugs at 90k miles.
     
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  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I wonder if this description might be considered off by one. There is a sensor that's forward of the whole engine: that'd be the MAF sensor, in the air intake. Then there's a sensor forward and a sensor aft of the first catalytic converter.

    The MAF sensor, forward of the whole engine, is a definite requirement; the engine can't even do good open-loop injection control without that.

    The next sensor, aft of the engine but forward of the cat, is used for feedback to achieve closed-loop mixture control.

    The final sensor, aft of the cat, is used for monitoring the functioning of the cat.
     
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  8. landspeed

    landspeed Active Member

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    OK … it is almost certainly a coil pack randomly going bad! I have never tested ‘bad cylinders’ on a Prius, so:

    - disconnecting the ‘low voltage input connector’ that goes to a coil pack will result in MG1 spinning the engine for a few seconds as usual, followed either by a clattering shutdown, or a brief (~1/4 second) cut to MG1 power, then MG1 spinning again for a few seconds (repeating a few times, then a cluttering shutdown).

    - to disconnect coils, you need to remove the coil pack itself, not just the electrical supply. Being used to the idea that a coil firing with no spark plug / electrical drain can break the coil itself, this was my problem!

    - getting the new spark plugs allowed me to have an old spark plug, so I could remove a coil, put a spark plug in it, and put the plug onto a ground, so the coil could fire ‘normally ‘.

    After doing this, one coil (the one closest to the inverter) could be removed, without changing the symptoms!

    Next, swapping the suspected dodgy coil pack resulted in the misfire moving with the coil pack :)

    The plugs themselves looked perfect, except the one from the cylinder that had been misfiring, which was coated in a good amount of carbon.

    next : it seems NWH10,11,20 use the same coils, I will check on my NWH20, and may be able to steal a coil pack for testing! Hopefully good news soon…
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    OT, but wasn't the designation NHWxx, not NWHxx?
     
  10. Trombone

    Trombone Active Member

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    NHWxx is correct.
     
  11. landspeed

    landspeed Active Member

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    End result : it was just a single bad coil pack!

    It is interesting that a bad coil pack can cause such a severe failure - without any codes in the engine ECU, and just an ‘engine system failure’ code in the Hybrid Control ECU.

    To start the car (cold start), I had to reverse, go into park, disconnect 12v (as the engine fails to start), then start the car again, and do full throttle almost immediately. It was *much* more difficult than what was needed to overcome the rare ‘engine fails to start on a frosty morning’ thing. This implies that cars without the ECU repair would end up ‘dead’ once a coil pack failed for the first time. They probably also ended up with a new ECU (parts cannon) if they ended up at the dealer (quite likely if the HV battery drained after a few start attempts).

    When driving to get the spark plugs and spark plug tool, I went to some other shops as well, so shut the car down a few times when in the shops. The entire journey was on 3 cylinders, and no codes whatsoever showed up, and no warning lights of any kind.

    I will do a proper test tomorrow to see if disconnecting one coil pack prevents the engine from starting at all (this does seem to be the case, which implies that if the low voltage side of a coil pack fails, you may end up stranded (i.e. if the computers realise a coil pack is faulty). I did a partial test of this once the car was running again (with one coil unplugged); it started doing 7 seconds of MG1, 0.25 second break, then another 7 seconds of MG1, etc (with no ‘rough running’ - instead it just does the 7 seconds of MG1 repeatedly)…
     
  12. Trombone

    Trombone Active Member

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    Congratulations on finding the solution to this puzzling problem!

    I wonder whether there were any sub-codes along with the "engine system failure" code in the Hybrid Control ECU?
     
  13. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    These hybrids have to have their engine rpm perfectly match the motor generator's speed control of the planetary gears or else you have severe damper slipping. A total cylinder outage like yours can cause a no start or stall because the engine rpm becomes erratic. It is not good to drive this way since the damper can self destruct which is a major repair generally requiring subframe and drivetrain removal if you go by the book.
     
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  14. landspeed

    landspeed Active Member

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    I wasn’t aware that there was, essentially, a clutch that is just left ‘engaged’ in the drivetrain; this will be another reason to avoid switching from neutral to drive above (65km/h in Gen 2) - I always assumed you shouldn’t do that due to the shock to the engine / drivetrain directly .. but the clutch probably reduces that shock;

    I will make sure I have my engine hoist and tools available just in case I did drive cautiously, with very slow acceleration, so hopefully I didn’t cause the clutch to slip too much!
     
  15. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Like the discs in real clutches, that one has friction surfaces and also a shaft connection surrounded by coil springs that can bounce to take up small irregularities in the rotation being transmitted. Those springs always have some job to do, because the engine output is inherently a bit bouncy (two power strokes per revolution) while the rotating masses in the transmission preferably rotate more smoothly.

    The friction faces in a car with a clutch get used regularly, as you use the pedal to engage and disengage the drivetrain. The friction faces in a Prius see very little action ever; they are clamped together under a constant pressure that would only let them slip at all to prevent a very high torque from doing damage, say if one of the other of transmission or engine were to fail and seize while the other was turning, it you were spinning wheels and suddenly got traction, that kind of thing.

    When the engine misfires, its output is even more uneven than usual. You hear noise because the gears in the transmission have a slight amount of lash, and the MG rotors are fairly massive, and all that stuff is getting whacked back and forth as it rotates, because of the uneven crankshaft rotation. It is the springs in the damper that really get overworked in that situation, and if it goes on long enough, they can get pounded to smithereens, and you can reach down in the bellhousing through the inspection hole and feel broken pieces of spring.

    Of course, once the springs are smashed, the metal-on-metal clatter gets even worse, because the damper is striking the ends of its travel with no spring in the way. The friction surfaces might then begin to slide a tiny bit at each whack, because those springless metal-to-metal whacks produce a high-enough instant of torque.

    Nothing you do at the driver controls is going to make the damper disc slip. It's just there to slip at high torques that exceed what the car is normally capable of, like the cases described above.

    Shifting between N and D is a purely electromagnetic affair. The power management control ECU is always in control of how much electromagnetic force it applies at the motor/generators, and it always synchronizes the force it applies to what the drive train is currently doing, and isn't going to make any abrupt change that would make the damper slip.

    The main worry about driving too long with misfires is beating up the coil springs in the damper.