Product is there, but no ones looking.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 13 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]389921[/snapback]</div>

I fully agree, both of them can be classified as trolls. Their only purpose to disrupt the forum. I have yet to see any interesting or good information from them apart from the normal GM propganda. It doesn't matter how long you are on a forum, if you are a troll you are a troll. Go look at all malorn's threads he started and posts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 13 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]389921[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Feb 14 2007, 09:55 AM) [snapback]390252[/snapback]</div>

I disagree. (Except for Godiva's statement that PC belongs to Danny and he can do as he pleases.) Otherwise, this is a public forum. And Danny has declared that in Fred's "The First Amendment is your friend." Nobody has to open this thread, read it, or post to it. Malorn owns a GM dealership. That's public knowledge, and I don't think he tries to conceal it. While his posts are consistently pro-GM and anti-Toyota, his bias is well-known and nobody has to read the threads he starts. Danny has chosen to allow him to post, and that's good enough for me. I seldom spend much time in his threads. But then, I open a very small percentage of threads on PC. I spend a lot of time here, and even so I don't have the time to read or participate in all the threads.

I don't know why PFR decided to come to a Prius chat board to argue in favor of GM against Toyota, intentionally putting himself (or herself) in the situation of being almost unanimously opposed. But I don't know why people get their tongues pierced, either. It's a free country (or was before W) and Danny has declared Fred's a free forum.

But I think PFR serves a purpose: The sort of arguments she (or he) makes are ones you may hear anywhere cars or trade are discussed, and less-educated PC members now have the opportunity to see those arguments refuted by those PC members that have more knowledge of the issues.

PFR makes some arguments that I believe are flawed, but makes them in a civil manner, in a venue where anyone can reply, and unlike some of the more acrimonious discussions we've seen, he/she keeps a cool head and responds to those replies.

Whether PFR is really 14, I suppose we'll never know, but I take arguments on their own merit, without regard to the person making them. After all, I don't know if Godiva is really posting on PC while sitting naked on a horse, either. (Though I give her the benefit of the doubt.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Feb 14 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]390252[/snapback]</div>

Said it before, but I have yet to hear of any country on the face of this Earth that allows someone to militantly and/or persistantly go to a business, place of worship, some other organization, and ruin their association (and free speech). So where is this notion that on the internet it's OK to do that without harm?

PFK seems to have left, which is the proper thing to do after he made his case (although I can't rule out him returning under an alias).

I'd likely do like Godiva and explicitly state coming solely to disrupt is not allowed or "free speech" if it were me. That's just asking for common civility and no trolling.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 14 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]390326[/snapback]</div>

I agree. If you don't like this discussion, you're free to not participate. But don't try to ban other people just because you disagree. Then you're putting yourself in George W's company by controlling free expression of others. PFR is more civil than many responders on this thread.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Feb 14 2007, 01:45 PM) [snapback]390348[/snapback]</div>

How was PFR militantly or insistently trying to disrupt our forum? We responded because it was an interesting topic to explore. Otherwise we'd simply ignore the post. I don't understand your logic at all.


Back to the subject, here's an interesting GM vs. Toyota comparison put out by NPR (and it's not liberal-biased, sorry):
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Feb 14 2007, 01:48 PM) [snapback]390349[/snapback]</div>

You're not taking this in context I put it at all.

A tiny fraction of the 1% of people that have joined PC are being disruptive (trolling). That could be joining and being outright tasteless, such as spamming or posting obsencities, or joining only to undermine the purpose of a forum such as the kind of GM propaganda PFK was making, even if it seemed civil on the surface. You know full well intollerance to trolls is not remotely as broad as GWB's interpretation of free expression - the vast majority of expression here is not of the trolling variety. I suppose you would consider Godiva a Bush supporter?

Nerfer if you still differ, could you post a link that documents a country where people can freely disrupt a business, place of worship, an association - just like trollers do on the net? If you can't, does that mean all governments are oppressive?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 13 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]389921[/snapback]</div>

He did not post anyone's private information. All he did was to link a GIF that is programmed to show each member his or her own IP Address and ISP when viewing the image. No one saw anyone else's internet connection details.

 

Most adults don't dress like 14-year olds - it's tacky. Neither do they pull fire alarms. Some adults in cyberspace are not mature enough to understand this.

 

Hello porkfriedrice,

I don’t doubt that you are in 8th grade. I’ve judged middle school and high school speech and debate tournaments and found the level of discussion and presentation to be above the level of a lot of adults

To everyone else, if you don't like this thread, don't read and post to it!

To get back to your title for this thread for me the product just isn’t there and I did look. Let me explain. I started looking for an additional vehicle in 2005. My wife drives a 03 VW Jetta Wagon TDI that has averaged 48 mpg over the last 130k miles (85% highway, 15% city). I had been riding a 02 BWM R1150R motorcycle that has averaged 41 mpg over the last 25K miles (80% city, 20% highway). The TDI gets pretty good mileage and is as large a vehicle as we would ever need. I set mpg as my number one priority when researching for a new car. I set a combine fuel mileage of 35 mpg as the minimum acceptable fuel mileage. I then went to www.fueleconomy.gov and searched for vehicles with mileage over 35 mpg. Below you will see the 10 vehicles that meet the criteria.

Honda Insight ------------ 63
Toyota Prius -------------- 55
Honda Civic Hybrid ----- 48
VW Beetle TDI ---------- 41
VW Golf TDI ------------ 41
VW Jetta TDI ------------ 41
VW Jetta Wagon TDI --- 39
Honda Civic -------------- 39
Toyota Echo ------------- 38
Toyota Corolla ---------- 36

As you can see there is not a single GM, Ford, and Chrysler product on the list. Here are the highest mileage cars for the domestics

Dodge Neon ------------- 32
Ford Focus --------------- 31
Chevy Aveo ------------- 30

No domestic automaker was even close to meeting my requirements so there was no reason to even consider buying domestic car. At this point I was basically choosing between a used Echo and a used Golf TDI. I had decided against the hybrids because of all the reports that they didn’t get anywhere near the EPA mileage. Then I had a chance to rent a Civic Hybrid. I drove it from San Francisco to Yosemite and back and got 49 mpg over those 400 miles. That pretty much sold me on hybrids. I looked for a Civic but no one had one within 400 miles so I started looking for a Prius. Needless to say I got a good deal on a 2005 at a car lot 3 miles from my house. So far I have average 46 mpg with the Prius, which makes my motorcycle the gas-guzzler of the family.

 

Average, average, average.

If Bill Gates walks into a typical neighborhood bar, suddenly on the average everyone in the bar is a billionaire.

Meanwhile, Workers at the Toyota factory in Kentucky make more than their Unionized counterparts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 14 2007, 07:48 PM) [snapback]390545[/snapback]</div>

Ah, now the whining about the poor helpless American companies. Let me explain that I have around 25 years experience in industrial process control, I’m a systems analyst: HART, DeviceNet, ControlNet, ProfiBus DP/PA, Foundation FieldBus, AS-I Bus, etc.

I noticed a trend around 1992 or so: a lot of the discussion about advanced digital process automation was being ignored or outright dismissed by “traditional†American companies, certainly those located within the U.S.

The company I contract for does a lot of embedded development, and a lot of digital process sensor design and modification. It’s a global operation based in Europe. One would think American companies would be beating down the doors to get the latest, most advanced, most efficient process systems.

On the contrary.

Last time I was in the U.S. on business was Spring 2001. The client was a large petrochemical company. I was really surprised the refinery still had pneumatic 5-15 psi process loops. That stuff is +40 years old, never mind the analog 4-20 mA loops.

To take that refinery from a cold shutdown to “in spec†would take around 3 weeks, non-stop. As far as process charts, the UCL and LCL variation was like a buckshot pattern, all over the place. They only wanted to do rudimentary process loop tuning, any mention of forklift upgrades of their entire system brought a “it’s the way we’ve always done it.â€

That comment from an industry that has enjoyed RECORD profits. What are they putting back into their process control? Zip.

Over the past 8 years, the real action in digital process control has been in … China. Since they had a rather primitive industrial base, it was easy to convince them of wholesale upgrades.

Consider a similar petrochemical firm in China, the giant SECCO complex. It’s the world’s largest ethylene cracker, a very impressive state-of-the-freaking-art industrial plant. All the process control is digital bus, using mostly Foundation FieldBus sensors and actuators. Not a pneumatic loop in sight. Guess how long it took them to go from cold start to in-spec?

11 hours.

The QC is ultra-tight too, basically a flat line bisecting UCL and LCL. At this point, I had better become fluent in Mandarin. All the future projects in our pipeline are in Asian countries, a few in the EU.

Now, you tell me how any chemical or manufacturing company in the U.S. has a hope to compete? I can see if they are perennial money losers, but an industrial segment like petrochemicals that is enjoying record profits, they still refuse to improve their bottom line by a minimum 30% by updating the equipment. Explain that to me please.

As far as those “evil†Asians whopping our butts, who do we have to blame? Take a cold hard look at executive decisions at American companies. It seems you have a real contempt for unionized workers, but they are almost totally disenfranchised from business decisions. What has management done, except sit on their fat butts?

What has the all-knowing all-seeing gov done? Various Administrations have done nothing at all. I would have thought all the racist rhetoric from the neo-conservatives would have at least turned around American industry, yet the opposite happened. Explain that please.

Oh, and you never did reply to my comments about “safe†lithium ion batteries, or “clean†diesel motors

 

PFR, funny that you are up at 2:30am on a school night???? How do you explain that? Either way your age is irrelevant, it is only relevant as it is a claim you make that some points have made it hard to believe. ANyway go read your own posts and think about it. No need to respond to this part of my post.

Either way you finally are gettign somewhere. SKip the blah blah nonsense and get down to facts.

Loosing or making money on a vehicle is up to how well a company is run. Obviously if you loose money on the product you sell it is very hard to stay in business. That is the thing GM needs to address. No need to respoind to this either, very simple economics.

Now go pull the 2006 numbers and list it for US only, don't list NA. SO exclude Canada and Mexico, last I checked they were different countries (although some folsk might disagree). I await your numbers, that will be good way to spend time researching your passion. Remember to site your references for the numbers you use.

Also get the worker numbers in the US, not NA. I don't believe the overwhelming workforce in Mexico and Canada are americans (as in US residents or citizens).

Now compare the 2 companies again, that will be more interesting to see. I hate it when the US is NA when it suites folsk and not when it doesn't.

Also list US only sales for GM and Toyota.

Lastly name me the GM brand cars (not trucks you would buy). It is much easier talking about numbers, but lets look at the product. What GM car would buy instead of a Corolla, Prius, Camry, Yaris adn hell even a Avalon. The only 2 interesting cars I can find from GM are the Corvette and the small Caddy, neither even competes with any Toyota offering (OK, maybe the Caddy with a Lexus).

My point is that we didn't forget about GM or don't want to look there way. It is GM forgot about us and didn't want to look our way. Change the way GM looks at the market and their products and you will see that the market will look different at GM. Beat GM's door down not ours.

So there is my post. Direct and to the point. Respond in a direct and to the point way, with the facts and references as requested above, if you are serious about a discussion on this topic. Otherwise you will simply expose yourself as just another troll coming here to blow of steam, create disruption, etc.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 14 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]390326[/snapback]</div>

I'm sorry. I thought this was a clothing optional forum.

Can the horse stay if he's house trained?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Feb 14 2007, 02:09 PM) [snapback]390366[/snapback]</div>

That's the whole point. Someone arguing the benefits of another car manufacturer in the appropriate forum is not disrupting our group. I don't consider spam and posting obscenities the same as discussing car companies, given that this is a car-based message board. If he was repeatedly posting to the Prius news forum, each of which gets shown on the front page, or putting the same message in all active threads, then yes, you'd definitely have a point. But this is a single thread in friggin' FHOP for crying out loud - exactly where this type of discussion is supposed to be. "the first amendment is your friend" here.

He is making arguments that some of us are opposed to (including me to a degree), so it's not unlikely to generate some heated debate. But this is the kind of thing we're exposed to from time-to-time with our neighbors, co-workers, families. We had better be able to handle this kind of talk. But if you can't handle it, stay out of this particular thread. I've excused myself from some political threads for that reason, many of which are started for the sole purpose of generating controversy.

 

nerfer,

There are at least two (gross understatement) other members that have the same issues with PFK.

There is also the issue of being an imposter. If you honestly believe PFK to be an 8th grader, there are realitors that would sell you land in the 7th Ward of New Orleans or South Florida. If someone is not honest about themselve, it's hard to believe anything they say.

There is someone that works for GM at GreenHybrid. While there is not much I agree with him on, he knows his facts and I don't doubt his credentials. He distinguishes himself further from PFK by occasionally putting his viewpoint rather than relentlessly posting content that is not factual. One can have an opposing point of view without being an agitator - martinjlm is absoultly not an agitator or troller at GreenHybrid.

There are so many things that can be done to describe a troller and it's subjective to a degree, but the bottom line is disruption. Just evaluate the "contribution" of PFK to this thread. I'm not holding my breath that members outside of yourself or PFK are going to characterize them as positive - we even had a moderator say this thread was going nowhere.

So why not move on to something productive?

 

Funny how you avoid real data. So you just have proven to be a waste of time. NA vs US numbers require some real homework, obviously too much of an effort for a topic you feel passoniate about????

The corolla vs cobalt, get real! Have you even went and looked at them in person??

Aveo vs Yaris, hmmmmmm. You are very funny. BTW where is the Aveo build?

I don't even want to waste my time to go further. It serves no point.

You have provided zero new or interesting information to back your argument. My initial impression was correct, you are just here to troll. No detailed data and references, no new or interesting infromation. Thus no point in discussing anything further.

 

Do not feed the trolls.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 14 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]390464[/snapback]</div>

porkfriedrice,

I commend you on your search for additional information and perspective plus coming to PC to learn and discuss.

As for bias: There will be a time in your future life when you might be making minimum wage at a McD, BK, TB or some entry level job just making ends meet when you might have to decide to buy a car. (assuming that your mommy or daddy does not buy a car for you)
You will ask yourself: should I buy a car that will LAST, has great gas mileage, low repairs, and looks good or should I buy a car based on a company's vision of the future?

No matter what company you want to SUPPORT, you will have to finally make a decision (with bias in mind based on some of the above criteria and financial situtation) and select a vehicle of your choice.

You might be surprised how your decisions might change when you are not under the comfort of your parent's shelter, food, clothing, internet access, etc.

In fact, without mom or dad's help, you might remain without a car totally. Your choice. Public transportation is a viable option too.

Just wait until you are in High School. I bet you or your potential prom dates will sure have bias at that time.

Hum, how do you like bias now?