Is nitrogen really better?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Sep 24 2006, 01:40 PM) [snapback]324316[/snapback]</div>

And what reasonS were that?

Speaking from Cadillac new car service experience it states in every shop manual that checking the tires pressures during PDI is to be done cold as it can vary 3 to 5 degrees after driving. Under normal driving conditions this doesn't happen with nitro. Maybe with dragsters on a burnout but not regular driving.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(8AA @ Sep 24 2006, 11:41 AM) [snapback]324259[/snapback]</div>

This is my point exactly. Here is another related link from the auto racing world:
http://www.eps-hane.com/techtips6.html

They state, in part:
Dry nitrogen is used in race tires as a means of reducing pressure rise during racing when the temperature of the tire rises. Air has about 78% nitrogen. So going to near 100% is not a very significant change.

Basically, the key to dry nitrogen is the dry. If tires are filled with moist air, the water vapor is the reason for the excessive pressure rise. The use of dry nitrogen eliminates this problem. The benefits of dry nitrogen are minimal when the air is very dry, as is the case often in Colorado.

And another post: http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.c...ArticleID=12948

Which states in part:
Hey Bob: This motorcycle road-racing engineer can tell you that the whole nitrogen-fill thing is usually a load of you know what (see "Bob's Mailbox," March 16, p. 20). The first thing they do when demounting/mounting your tire is to spray the entire bead area with copious amounts of soapy water. Repeatedly. So all the dry nitrogen in the world isn't going to amount to a hill of beans when the environment inside the tire is quite moist. To make it worth anything you'd need to use a commercial non-water-based tire mounting lubricant. So for those who need the very best, they should make sure that they get the right lube with that nitrogen!

Scott Traurig (via e-mail)
Pease: Hey, Scott, I forgot about that!! Maybe if they ran dry nitrogen through the tire (in and out?) after it was mounted, they could eventually dry it out. Inflate/deflate, nine times? Absurd!!! Maybe if they used some solvent that was not water-based, they could avoid the moisture. Maybe racers do that. I mean, I understand why they do want dry air—to minimize changes in inflation. Would they use some kind of rubber cement? Next time I buy a tire, I'll stand there and watch them mount it. Then if they wanted to sell me dry nitrogen, I'd ask why they wet it down first. But nobody has ever asked me if I wanted nitrogen. Not yet. Thanks for being so observant. I don't buy tires very often or have them remounted. I usually bring in a flat and tell them I'll be back tomorrow for a new tire....

 

Here is a post that properly states the real advantages of using nitrogen:

1. its easier to carry a N2 bottle to places to fill tires. (race track, off road)

2. a lot of the new shocks use N2 on top of the oil to reduce foaming. since they can be adjusted by adding or removing some of the N2 you have this gas on hand.

3. since you have it on hand you can put it in the tires (mostly seen on offroad apps but i have seen it on the drag strip too)

4. since you are just putting N2 in it makes it easier to predict what the heat is going to do to the air in the tire. This is important on a racetrack when you have to get the most out of a tire between changes during a race. to get the best effect for this you need to seat the tire, pull a vacuum on it to get the water vapor out then fill it with N2. if you dont get the water vapor out you are pretty much pissing up a rope.

5. Aircraft use it because. a: its dry and any water in the tires is going to freeze at 40,000 feet and may not thaw before landing. b: its easier to fill a tire to 250+psi from a 1500psi bottle than a multistage compressor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BobZ @ Sep 24 2006, 10:44 AM) [snapback]324320[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BobZ @ Sep 23 2006, 12:12 PM) [snapback]323975[/snapback]</div>

Olympia beer, a brand which was marketed on the West Coast and is no longer around, had a slogan: "It's the water." Same here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Sep 24 2006, 06:19 PM) [snapback]324421[/snapback]</div>

We can go on forever with this if you wanna mince words go ahead. Bottom line is in an average car tire the pressure pretty much stays the same. In the summer. In the winter. After driving. After sitting over night. Would you like to debate that too...?

Your beer story make about as much sense as the snake oil theory

 

I do lacquerwork as a hobby, and lacquer is very sensitive to moisture, so I've got a large water separator, filter and dessicant drier connected to my shop air supply for my spray guns, but it also makes an ideal source for filling my car tires.. Perfectly clean, dry air, every single time and none of the problems associated with water vapor in unfiltered compressed air. The filter is cleanable, the dessicant is reusable by heating the pellets in the oven when they are full of water, so other than the one time setup cost, I've got all the same benefits of a pure dry nitrogen fill.. I can even pump up portable tanks with dry air..

Nobody is disputing that dry nitrogen has some benefits over unfiltered compressed air, but please get your physics right.. It is the water vapour that causes problems; if the gas is dry, oxygen, nitrogen (and almost any other dry gas or gas mixture (such as air)), will behave virtually identically due to the ideal gas law which states for *ANY* ideal gas, Pv=nRT.. Mindlessly sppouting any other BS does you no credit whether or not the end result is valid or not..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Sep 24 2006, 05:33 PM) [snapback]324402[/snapback]</div>

Great summary of some of the huge advantages of N2 in other applications where air is rarely used.

I've wondered if moist air might have another advantage (besides availability) over nitrogen for my uses. Where I live, the side roads are often much bumpier than the expressways. During short trips over small roads, I really appreciate the softer ride from lower inflation pressure. During long trips over smooth expressways, I prefer higher inflation pressure and lower fuel consumption. All gases will expand as they warm. If my inflation pressure increases by 5 psi using moist air instead of 2 psi using dry air or nitrogen, I see this as an advatage for my uses.

(If I inflate with very humid air, under pressure some of this moisture will condense. Many of us have seen pump hoses spitting condensed water. As the tires and the air inside warm, some of this water will evaporate, further increasing pressure.)

BTW, I've been happily using nitrogen in one car with tires from Costco and using air in another car with tires from elsewhere.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Sep 24 2006, 04:33 PM) [snapback]324402[/snapback]</div>

As I understand it, nitrogen is also used in aircraft to reduce the possibility of a violent tire fire.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BobZ @ Sep 24 2006, 08:04 AM) [snapback]324200[/snapback]</div>

Interesting that the article you link to for support of your argument never mentions the word Nitrogen.....

 

I'm copying this post from another thread I just responded too:

YES, the benefits of using N2 are marginal... but they are BENEFITS nonetheless. I sell nitrogen tire-filling systems for a living (yes, that makes me biased) so I know my fair share about this concept. Yes the air we breathe and the air in your tires is already 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen, but it's been proven through testing by companies like Michelin, Goodyear, and Ford for example that reducing that amount of oxygen to around 5% does infact offer the consumer extended tire life and inceased fuel mileage. These are the two biggest benefits, and they result from the nitrogen maintaining your tire pressure. Oxygen permeates through the wall of your tire 5x's faster than the nitrogen. Here is the biggest beef with most people who say nitrogen is a waste of money... "all you have to do is frequently check that your tires are at the correct pressure and fill with air accordingly". That is 100% true... if you do this you will also extend tire life and increase fuel mileage. However, for every person that says this, I will guarantee you 3 out of 5 of them haven't checked their tire pressure since they had the tires put on or rotated and are running with under-inflated tires.

SO... why pay $20 for nitrogen (don't ever pay more than $5 per tire or your getting ripped off) in your tires, because none of us have the time to monitor our tire pressure... and this costs you money (tire life & fuel). We all drive a Prius to save money on fuel (ok, its a cool car too) so that is why I make sure my car has 5W-30 oil in it, why I drive the speed limit, why I coast to stop lights, why I try not to use the a/c, and WHY I HAVE NITROGEN IN MY TIRES.

We didn't even touch the whole "safety" factor... most blowouts (which equal rolling into a ditch) are due to under-inflated tires. Enough said!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(narf @ Sep 23 2006, 12:25 PM) [snapback]323981[/snapback]</div>

If you can demonstrate the differences in the discrepancy for behavior of N2 and O2 under the ideal gas law, I'll send you cash.

 

hey what about argon, i hvae a huge tank i use for welding ( which i dont do often ) , i wonder if i can fill my tire with that stuff

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(narf @ Sep 23 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]323970[/snapback]</div>

Bullsheet.

All you naysaysers, are you listening to yourselves? How often have you had to defend your choice of a hybrid? I mean, come on. You could have bought a TDi, and put in BioDiesel, and not used gas at all...

Higher tire pressures = better fuel economy due to less rolling resistance. Nitrogen filled tires stay much more stable so therefore you can fill them to lets say 40psi and keep them there for about six months, vs an air filled tire that can change as much as 8 psi during that time.

Frankly, it works for me. I have had steady tire pressure, better mileage, and am glad I did it.

 

As I posted earlier, I've got a dessicant air drier and filter on my compressor that puts out bone dry air. I also use higher tire pressures on my car and they can stay stable for months at a time as well, but it's plain air that just been dried. I swore off gas station air or even those little portable compressors when I saw one spitting water on a humid day..

It really doesn't take much moisture to cause pressures to change radically either.. The @!#* dealer lowered the pressure on my tires after a service one day and I decided to top them off at a gas station and I really should have waited until I got home.. For weeks after topping off with gas station air, I had pressure variations in my tires and I ended up having to let the air out and refill several times from my compressor to get the moisture out of the tires which is the real reason for nitrogen: pure dry nitrogen is better than even 95% dry air- that 5% of water vapor, while it seems like nothing, does make a huge difference..

 

This is kind of a stale thread, but it occurred to me that airplane tires use N2 (for example the shuttle...)

3. USE DRY NITROGEN GAS (WHEN REQUIRED)
Nitrogen will not sustain combustion and will reduce degradation of the liner material, casing plies and wheel due to oxidation.

From Goodyear: http://www.goodyearaviation.com/faq.html

Many regulatory agencies require the use of nitrogen when inflating tires for aircraft above a specified Maximum Takeoff Weight (MTOW). Michelin recommends the use of nitrogen when inflating all aircraft tires. Nitrogen provides a stable, inert inflation gas while eliminating the introduction of moisture into the tire cavity.

From http://www.skytreads.com/mounting.htm


All that said, I wouldn't pay extra for N2 either, because I've never had to replace a tire because of it, and it would be a PITA. Also, wheels/tires are assembled differently on airplanes.

I would put it in the category of possibly useful, but not really necessary...

If it really did something to extend life or something, it surely would be in the owners manual.

pat

 

Motorweek on PBS will discuss this topic, Nitrogen in tires, this coming Sunday, 2/25 at 3:00 pm EST and Wednesday, 2/28 at 4:00 pm EST. At least that's what they said as I watched yesterday's Motorweek show.