Gas Sippers Choices 2007, $3 a gallon is back

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HBO6 @ Mar 10 2007, 07:31 AM) [snapback]403347[/snapback]</div>

What kind of test gave only 38.7 mpg?

Dave M.

 

$3 now, $4 by summer. Nearing that magic $5 where the public is supposedly gonna take it seriously and make changes. I think oil companies are 'testing the waters' to see where that magic price really is. Capitalism: Where the left hand (oil companies) eats the right hand (GM). Capitalism=cannibalism?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ Mar 10 2007, 10:41 AM) [snapback]403353[/snapback]</div>

Probably a very short one. Any Prius driver will tell you that until the engine warms up, the first few miles of driving is usually pretty low on the mpg guage.

 

I sent an e-mail via their link disputing their mpg claim for the Prius. Their average has to increase if they factor in mine. I also pointed out the fleet average at greenhybrid.com.

 

http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/CAmetro.asp says the average is $3.085/gal for regular in San Jose and $3.204/gal in SF.

 

Is it wrong to root for 5 bucks a gallon?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Mar 10 2007, 10:55 AM) [snapback]403361[/snapback]</div>

They already know where the breaking point is. They can go to $5 before people start a serious revolt. They did a study a few years ago.

They're slowly inching up the price rollercoaster fashion until they hit $5 a gallon. You'll certainly see it on a regular basis by 2010. I'm betting we'll see $4 a gallon, if briefly, this year. More often next year. Etc.

It will only spur Prius sales and increase the number of models of hybrids available. Hopefully it will also provide an incentive for plug in and EV models since the demand for such will only increase.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Mar 11 2007, 01:32 PM) [snapback]403858[/snapback]</div>

Yes, but we can use the boiled frog analogy. Raise the water temperature slowly enough, the frog won't jump out of the pot.

Raise the gas prices slowly enough, and the public forgets how high they really are.

Well, $5 a gallon. They'll probably go back down to only $4.

<_<

Dave M.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Mar 11 2007, 01:05 PM) [snapback]403846[/snapback]</div>

Not really, but it should go into road taxes, not the pockets of big oil. Everybody hates taxes, but they do serve a purpose. In this case maybe doing road repair, providing alternate transportation, and discouraging the use of a limited resource.

Dave M.

 

My guess this price has more to do with switching blends of gas (from Winter to Summer) rather than just greed. We'll see if it ebbs a little in a month.

That said, OPEC seems a bit discoordinated lately, the price may rise out of control simply because the left hand can't talk to the right so well.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SoopahMan @ Mar 11 2007, 08:37 PM) [snapback]403987[/snapback]</div>

One of the consumer groups did some research.

They looked at the price of what the price of gas was during this same switchover and the price of a barrel of oil. They found the gas is 30% higher now for the same price as a barrel of oil.

They also said the high prices would last into May. March, April, May. It takes three months to do the switch? And another three months to switch back for winter? You're telling me six months of the year?

So now it's being blamed on the inability of the refineries to produce enough gas. Apparently they're only working at 85% capacity because of some fires, broken stuff, safety, whatever. Basically failure to to routine maintenance, safety violations etc. Gee, it's not like they didn't have enough money to do it. So it's negligence, carelessness, poor business practices. Then again, why should they? By keeping the gas shortage going they stand to make record profits.

Ain't capitalism great?

(I'd also like the high price of gas to put some money into R&D on alternative energy, not entirely into the pockets of those controlling the market to their own benefit. A reasonable profit is Ok. An OBSCENE PROFIT is not.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Mar 11 2007, 01:05 PM) [snapback]403846[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, it is. Though the laudable effects of higher gas prices include incentives for conservation and alternative energy usage, the negative effects will mostly be felt by those who can least endure them: lower income earners who can only afford outdated gas guzzlers. Asking a single mom who lives in the rural Midwest who has no access to public transporation, and has to commute 40 miles a day to a dead-end job in a '69 Chevy Nova to shoulder the burden of our profligate energy usage is a bad idea. And it won't be just the price of gas. Many other very basic goods (food, etc.) will be affected. The end result is about the most regressive tax I can imagine.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ Mar 11 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]403871[/snapback]</div>

Yes. But if you continue to raise the temperature the frog won't jump, it will "CROAK".

The last thing they want to do is kill the golden goose. And their study shows the death will start to occur at $5 a gallon.

After all, it's only the occasional $3 a gallon and look how hybrid sales are going. They'll only get better. There are more people experimenting with plug-ins and vegetable oil diesel. When $4 becomes more common you're going to see more in the way of EVs. At $5 people are going to be seriously doing public transportation, long-distance work from home using internet, etc, EVs, plug-ins, hybrids, alternative fuel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Mar 11 2007, 10:48 PM) [snapback]403994[/snapback]</div>

As you may know, my background is primarily industrial process control. Last time I had anything to do with an American refinery was summer of 2003. That cracker was ancient, it even had 5-15 psi pneumatic control loops. That sort of control loop was obsolete by 1985 or so, when distributed process control - notably Honeywell TDC 3000 and Bailey INFI 90 - were introduced.

I find it ironic, and a bit suspicious, that almost all of my digital process bus work is now in China. With all these record profits the oil companies are enjoying, why aren't they upgrading their process equipment to meet the needs of the 21st century?

As an example of how important a modern digital plant network, such as Emerson DeltaV PlantWeb running Foundation FieldBus, is to an efficient process, consider this: a modern digital plant loop can offer full redundancy with LAS (Link Active Scheduler, in which case something like a control valve or temperature transmitter can assume control of the loop if communication is lost with the control room), proven process cost savings of a *minimum* 30%, better loop stability with auto loop tuning of the PID (Proportional, Integral, and Derivative), and easier startup.

When Katrina shut down the Gulf refineries, they took around 3-4 weeks to transition from cold start to “in spec†production. A modern petrochemical refinery, such as the SECCO facility in Shanghai, China, went from initial cold start to “in spec†in slightly under 11 hours. The SECCO facility is considered to be the largest ethylene cracking complex in the world

http://www.emersonprocess.com/home/news/pr/507_secco.html

That’s the kind of competitive pressure – due to vastly superior industrial automation technology - we now face from China. Yet I still see ancient 5-15 psi pneumatic control loops and almost-ancient 4-20 mA analog control loops the dominant feature of chemical and petrochemical plants in the United States. It’s embarrassing.

So perhaps the gung-ho American “apologists†we have at PriusChat can explain to me why an entire industrial sector has targeted itself for extinction? Please feel free to use a lot of Calculus, PID’s, and organic chem, I’ll understand it.

It would be like Ford having for sale a brand new Model T, with the same technology as the original, for the same price as a Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Mar 11 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]403858[/snapback]</div>

All we need is ONE hurricane this year. <_<

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(woodworks @ Mar 12 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]404345[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(woodworks @ Mar 12 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]404345[/snapback]</div>

We totally agree with this quote. $5.00 a gallon will be devastating to the lower middle class and retired people on fixed incomes! Many of us live in rural communities where we have to drive 30 miles to a hospital! Where are the legislators who should be controlling windfall profits made at the expense of the (poor) consumer? And....here in Illinois....we have seen our electric bills double this year when the freeze was lifted. Yet we are told by the news media that Ameren's profits are soaring. It's about time the greedy are called to account.

 

Cost update.
Just drove from Malibu, Ca to LAX airport through Santa Moica, Venice, Playa Del Rey. ALL the stations I saw were over $3.18/gal for 87 Octane. Some $3.25 plus.
The morning paper has a quote that "the price rise is on its last legs".
Sure has been a steep increase in Los Angeles County.
Carl

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Mar 11 2007, 09:48 PM) [snapback]403994[/snapback]</div>

What other industry works routinely at 85% or higher? Answer: none.

The problem is that new refineries can be built anywhere, "except in my backyard." The permitting process won't allow any new refineries to be built.

Well, yeah, but...see above. The statement has some truth, but much of the background is missing. Seems not too many people think the smell of hydrogen sulphide (the smell of money in Saudi Arabia), is all that appealing, so no new refineries...

Harry