Can we purchase and install the Third Generation Lithium-Ion Battery Pack to our 2004 - 2007 Prius

I would think charge/discharge rate, SOC limits, temperature range, etc. will be different between different battery chemistries. That will require ECU re-programming? Not something that normal people can do.

 

That will be a nice upgrade features, but I don't think the car manufacturer will allowed. 3rd party addon might be feasible.

IMO, by the time the technology is available, I will be driving the latest Gen Prius.

 

I have no doubt that Toyota could make that happen. They could offer battery and PHEV (Plug-in, If they go there) upgrades to 2004+ Prius owners. It would honestly take them well under an hour to swap out the original grey battery box for a new one, containing a new battery ecu that was programmed for the larger capacity Lithium and plug in options. How do I know Toyota could do it, because we (many PHEV Prius projects) have already done it ourselves...

 

Although I hope they would, I really doubt it.

To change the battery would require recertification that it meets EPA regs. Although it's "just a battery" it would have a great effect (presumably beneficial, but they have to prove it) on emissions. It takes a large number of cars and tests to get certified, and Toyota would have to have a supply of "new 2004" Priuses to run the tests on. And the software recalibration would have to come after a lot of testing and programming. By the time they recoup that investment through higher battery csots, that new battery would cost as much as a new Prius.

All that expense for what benefit? Besides, they want to sell NEW Priuses, not upgrade older Priuses! They would probably CHOOSE not to even if it was feasible.

I hate this answer, but I think it's the truth.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Mar 14 2007, 04:14 PM) [snapback]405604[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, that's not a very environmentally-friendly attitude, is it?

In the end, Toyota wants to sell cars. Toyota doesn't care about the environment any more than its customers force it to.

Customers want Toyota hybrid vehicles--great. They'll be happy to sell such vehicles. But extend the length of the life of a car they've already sold? That's HERESY to a sales organization. They want you to buy the NEW one.

Now let's talk about all of you who go out and continue this cycle, buying the latest and greatest car not because yours isn't safe or roadworthy, but because it doesn't have this or that doodad. You're putting your old car back into the wilderness and are encouraging Toyota to use up natural resources to build a new car to satisfy--what? Gadget lust?

You'd do all that just for gadget lust? That's not very environmentally friendly.

Don't blame Toyota. They're just a mindless corporate money machine, driven by their customers. Blame the customers--in this case, the so-called environmentally friendly crowd who, ironically, doesn't care about the impact of forcing yet another car to be built.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Mar 14 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]405730[/snapback]</div>

Gadget Lust! I am cut to the quick. Guilty, but throw myself on the mercy of the New World court. We are Pioneers willing to go where the common consumers are unwilling. With out us great innovations and breakthroughs would not happen. Without the desire for the latest and greatest, we would still be driving a Model T.... maybe even fueled with Whale oil (a renewable resource BTW). Remember that our castaway Prii find good second owners, and third.... Yes Toyota wants to sell cars but there is a whole lot more market share they could gain by being transportation solution providers, not just car makers for the world. Why not bolster their dealership profit margin by training the mechanics to swap out batteries and reprogram the computers for a fee?

 

I think it would be a fantastic idea if our congress would pass legislation to transfer the 2 billion tax credit from the oil companys to all the Prius / Hybrid owners to convert to the newer battery technology. I would vote for that. :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Mar 14 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]405604[/snapback]</div>

Exactly! There won't be enough demand for Toyota to justify the cost to do this and be also be able to sell it at a price that consumers are willing to pay. They'd much rather sell you a new car.

A Toyota rep at a hybrid seminar at Toyota Sunnyvale MANY months ago basically said something to the above effect when asked a similar question.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Mar 14 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]405730[/snapback]</div>

It's not just the customers, but it's (the wants and needs of) Wall Street/the investment community and shareholders. Toyota is a for profit company, not a charity.

 

On top of all of the regulatory stuff that one has to go through to make something like this, I don't think it has ever been done in the history of cars? has it? I know that there are aftermarket engine upgrades, but has any car manufacturer ever offered the capability to 'upgrade' an engine?

If you seriously wanted to do this, you can already put in a Li-Ion battery in your car. I'm not saying it's going to be cheap, or even practical, but it is most definitely possible. EnergyCS had a demonstrator awhile back.

Alternatively, you could wait for toyota to offer this, and buy one. Adapting it to work with the '04 is not impossible, it would probably be significantly more work than what the PHEV people are currently doing though..

Seems the dealership around here is really willing to order anything that is orderable. No questions asked too... Again, probably not the cheapest, might be cheaper to wait for the cars to come out, age a bit, and look on ebay. I have seen 2G NiMH traction batteries for go for pretty low there..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(_echo @ Mar 15 2007, 12:22 AM) [snapback]405936[/snapback]</div>

Not sure what you define as an upgrade, but the car manufacturers themselves do offer add-ons like CAI, headers, forced induction (super and turbochargers) and the like at places like via Nismo (http://www.nissanusa.com/nismo/), TRD (http://www.trdusa.com) and http://www.gmperformanceparts.com (not too familiar w/their stuff).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Mar 15 2007, 06:46 AM) [snapback]405960[/snapback]</div>

I think the idea was Ford, GM, Toyota, etc. offering engine upgrades. I sure don't know of any. Any companies like Audi make it very explicit that chip upgrades for engine control void the warranty (they even use one-way screws to secure the engine controller.

- Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(_echo @ Mar 15 2007, 12:22 AM) [snapback]405936[/snapback]</div>

Right, also Hybrids-Plus has a pretty slick Lithium conversion similar to what I might expect Toyota to do/change should they end up going Lithium and/or PHEV with the next generation Prius...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(_echo @ Mar 15 2007, 12:22 AM) [snapback]405936[/snapback]</div>

You know, that makes me ponded .oO( and hope Toyota is listening )Oo. if in the 2008/2009 model when they do end up with this new Lithium (and PHEV) update, but the rest of the car remains basicly the same. That is if they don't make major changes to the frame, body, or powertrain like the minor 2005 to 2006 changes, then I might actually expect the Lithium pack to be a drop in replacement for the NiMH pack... That is I can hope, though it may be a long shot, that the Toyota engineers want to do as little reworking to their otherwise perfect Prius. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work... There is plenty of potential "dead space" in the rear end for new hardware like a grid charger, and even a nice grommet to run the cable out to a plugin port, should they go all the way to a PHEV. The battery box contains all of the management hardware and computer for the battery, so the new Lithium cells and it's management computer with it's new software could in all reality simply drop into any existing Prius and tell the current cluster of computers whatever it needs to in order to make use of the larger capacity/phev capable battery pack. Heck the new Lithium BMS computer might even be able to trigger an EV-Mode request automatically over the CAN network for optimal PHEV opperations...

Seriously folks, if I were a Toyota consultant that's what I would be telling them to do...
Not that I want to put all these new PHEV conversion/kit startups out of business, but I would seriously consider ditching my own working PHEV conversion and plunk down the $3K-$9K for the 08/09 OEM Prius Li battery hardware if it ended up fitting the 2004+ cars... I would feel far more confident in an OEM solution and become an OEM Upgrader at a moments notice for the half million or so existing Prius out there if the dealers aren't interested in doing so. This would probably also solve the regulation issues, if the 08/09 is the same car with a different battery, then there should be no issue with me or other "aftermarket" shops swapping it into older Prii.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cubbyg @ Mar 14 2007, 11:32 PM) [snapback]405922[/snapback]</div>

Hey! So would I. In fact, it the new batteries become demonstrably safe and effective enough, I'd pay for the kit out of pocket. But, a tax credit would be nice.

Dave M.

 

My only question would be, why? If the next gen battery is a larger capacity and provides greater EV or stealth range, then great. But I wouldn't expect a larger battery to provide any dramatic improvements in fuel economy by itself under average use unless we're talking about a plug-in conversion. And we don't know if the next Prius will be plug-in capable. Overall system efficiency is mostly about the way the car manages the ICE, and I don't see a whole lot that changes with a bigger battery alone. Our cars would still shuffle energy back and forth in roughly the same manner, with roughly the same [really good] results.

Anybody know how efficient a lithium ion pack is relative to a NiMH? That might make a difference.

 

I recently purchased two new lithium ion batteries and a charger for my "Milwaukee" 18 volt tool set that originally came with NiMH. The performance is indeed better. They do, of course, have a brand new set of tools to go with these new batteries, but I for one am thrilled I don't have to buy all new tools. (Nothing wrong with the ones I have)

Hopefully this is a sign that new/better batteries might be offered at some point for existing vehicles. (You have my permission to call me a dreamer) :blink:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brick @ Mar 15 2007, 12:03 PM) [snapback]406197[/snapback]</div>

Sure, from Rechargeable_battery see the Comparison_of_battery_types table

• Cycle effeciency by chemestry family
• Pb - 70%-92%
• Ni - 65%-90% (NiMH=66%)
• Li - 99.9%

I'm not sure where the number for Lithium comes from, and it seems pretty darned high, but from my own experiance with Lithium and NiMH I would still guess that Lithium is higher than 95% eff. Asside from the numbers I see on a battery cycler you can simply "feel" the effects as temperature rise durring charge. While a NiMH cell gets noticably warmer durring recharge, as it's internal resistance goes up, and thus it's effeciency goes down. Lithium cells have absolutely no detectable (by me with a course 1 degree temp probe) temperature change durring the charge cycle, and also very little "waste heat" is generated durring discharge. I even thought that I had read somewhere that Lithiums chemical reaction is endothermic such that they actually cool down while charging? I don't know about that, but it would be a similar reaction to a Nickel Metal Hydride Hydrogen storage tank that I have which heats up as it's "charged" with high pressure hydrogen, and then looses heat as it's "discharged" so external heat must be added to keep the flow of hydrogen comming out of the tank...

Anyway, it would appear that Lithium is a more effecient battery, it's also lighter, and more energy dense, and as of late it's also power dense enough for hybrids. These latest generation Emoli-1, A123, and the like are far safer as they have eliminated the ?oxydent that made previous cells so, shall we say "unstable" when abused.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(D0li0 @ Mar 16 2007, 04:15 PM) [snapback]406659[/snapback]</div>

I believe the "NiMH=66%" is shown too low and "Li - 99.99%" is shown too high.
Those numbers look strange to me.

Ken@Japan