New Owner - a few questions

With regard to oil fill when I picked up my car it was over filled. I did not discover it until the next day. OK it was on my list but I was excited and forgot. Lucky I ran into a Jiffy Lube Manager from an award winning auto repair high school program that knew all about the Prius. He drained the extra oil increased my tire pressure and did it all for free. I hope someone hires this kid and pays him more. There is hope fore the future.

 

Read this post last night, thought I better check my oil level today. Oil level was over ¼ inch above the Full level. Called service manager in Southern IL where car was purchased, he said “oil is installed when car arrives at dealership, take car to any Toyota Dealer and they will correct the problemâ€. I removed drain plug and removed 16.5 ounces weight (on scale), not fluid ounce. Oil level is now about ¼ inches below Full level mark.

 

That's an excellent safety tip, especially for winter driving conditions.

Indeed, Olle Nordstrom of the Swedish Road and Traffic Safety Institute, in Linkoping, Sweden, has performed extensive testing on tires at the Volvo winter test track. He has numerous papers and technical materials at:

http://www.vti.se

I have a relative who is fluent in Swedish, but if you prefer to read a report in English, the Tire Rack also performed the same series of tests:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/wint_only4.jsp

They tested for the opposite condition: winter tires on back and all-season on front, on warm dry pavement. Under those conditions, the winter tires let go first.

By installing high-traction tires in front and regular, or low-traction tires in rear, you can create a *dangerous* condition on slippery roads . The car will want to fishtail on you, and the rear end could slide out.

Always run 4 tires of the same type, never mix.

 

jsarich,
What dealership did you get it from, because I am looking for a good dealership. I also live in Northwest Indiana (Munster).

P.S. Don't you hate all of that sickly brownish black slush on the road that gets all over your car?

 

ROFLMAO!!! Next time you visit the dealer, see this fine “gentleman†and present the following to him:

1) How to convert Metric to English
a. 1 liter = 2.114 US pints, thus 3.9 liters = 8.456 pints or 4.228 quarts = overfill!
b. Also, per Toyota Prius manual, page 312, 3.7 liters = 3.9 quarts (3.7*2.114=3.91 quarts).
c. If you are feeling especially spunky, offer to help him with reading lessons.

2) Inform this fine gentleman that you have looked up the Goodyear Integrity tire and see that it is nothing special. In fact, according to Goodyear, “The versatile Integrity consistently offers a smooth ride with durable all-season traction, which is why auto manufacturers choose Integrity for many of their passenger vehicles. Its 50,000 Mile Tread Life Limited Warranty only adds to the excellent value of this tire.â€
a. If this tire was “special†why would it be used on anything but the Prius? After all, the high cost of these tires would be price prohibitive for other cars. Fact: The Integrity is OEM (original equipment manufacture) on many vehicles.
b. Note the tire size. The weight supported by the Prius tires is no different than a Ford Focus. Prius uses P185/65R15 tires to support 2890 pounds curb weight, load rated at 1168 pounds. The Focus uses P185/65R14 tires to support 2677 pounds curb weight with load rating of 1124 pounds (Integrity specs). OEM tires for the base Ford Focus include the Goodyear Integrity. Special tires, huh?
c. The “smooth ride†mentioned above is achieved through the use of SOFT sidewalls, not stiff ones. If the tire had no give, like a performance tire, the effect would be like having stiffer shocks, and a harsher ride.
d. If you have read through the forum, you have come upon numerous “comments†regarding the Prius wandering when exposed to crosswinds while driving. This is directly a result of soft sidewalls, which deflect under lateral load and have the same effect as turning the steering wheel slightly. The sidewalls of this tire are SOFT!
e. Prove this to yourself. With the car parked, try to rock the Prius side to side by lightly pushing on the roof pillar (at the top of the doors). Note the ease with which the car shakes back and forth. Quickly look at the front tires while the vehicle is being rocked. Note the cause is sidewall deflection. Now try this on another car with tires other than the Integrity. You will note this is more difficult and when done, the sidewalls show significantly less deflection. Again, the Integrity sidewalls are SOFT!
f. As for the “fortune†to replace the tires, these tires MSRP from Goodyear for $70.95. At $284 to replace all four tires, while this is money, it is cheap for tires. The average tire costs about $115 MSRP.

3) Now smile and walk away knowing that YOU have proven you know more about a Toyota Prius than this so called “Prius Specialist.†Also be comforted in knowing that many of us are here to help you and we are well qualified (automotive engineers and the like with specific knowledge about this vehicle and others) and will help whenever possible.


Sorry, but I really dislike people that act like they know something when in reality they know nothing.

 

Hmmm?

I noticed an immediate improvement in ride quality when I ditched the Integrity for the Michelin Harmony. It's still a bit stiff, but nowhere near as harsh as with the Integrity.

I also had a huge handling issue at Trans Canada speeds, especially in crosswinds. I wouldn't call it a "comment," it was a SERIOUS problem. In my case, the alignment was way off. My Prius is now much better, but nowhere near ideal.

If you give the "wiggle test" almost every car and pickup out there wiggles a bit. But to suggest that some forum members with chronic handling problems could "cure" them with different -stiffer - tires is a bit much. That really insults the intelligence of some forum members who are ready to sell their cars as they FEAR the car's handling at freeway speeds.

My folks have a 2003 Buick LeSabre Celebration Edition with P225 60R 16 tires. However, they "minus sized" for their winter tires and run Cooper WeatherMaster ST2 studded tires in P215 70R15.

You would think the much narrower winter tires (Same OD though) would make that big Buick uncontrollable at highway speeds. I've driven their car with both the Michelin Harmony "summer" tires and more recently with the WeatherMaster studded winter tires, including a recent trip to Regina and back in very nasty blizzard conditions.

The Buick appears to handle the same with either tire. Of course, the snow and ice traction with the studded tires is far superior. When you consider how long, wide, and HEAVY the LeSabre is, it should be all over the road at 110 km/h in heavy crosswinds.

Yet it tracks rail-straight with one finger on the wheel. I only dream that my Prius could cruise down the Trans Canada that easily!

 

Absolutely, with the narrower tire contact patch, there should be more weight on that contact patch. Oddly enough, despite more sidewall to "flex" I haven't noticed any difference in how that land barge handles.

To be sure, it's not a race car, and it's fuel economy sucks in comparison to my Prius. But it's a safe long-distance cruiser with a pleasant ride, and effortless driving characteristics.

I can drive my parent's LeSabre for a 5 hour stretch, with one or two fingers on the wheel, and stop feeling totally relaxed. Snow and ice can safely be driven at 80 km/h, thanks to the tires.

I wish I had test-drove my Prius in crosswinds at TransCanada speeds. I might not have purchased it. Since it spends 90% of the time at 70 km/h or under, in city traffic, the handling isn't an issue.

Some forum members, such as FredWB and Geoff, have VERY serious handling issues. I thought I had cured most of my issues until I tried driving on snow/ice with the all-season tires.

It almost felt as if the back end was steering, the car was moving with a pivot point about in the middle, just as FredWB described. If I let go of the wheel, the rhythm increased to the point where I felt it might go out of control.

Oddly enough, at no point did the VSC complain or give any indication this was seriously amiss.

If I give my Prius the "wiggle test" the Dunlop Graspic DS-2 winter tires allow MUCH more wiggle side-to-side than the Michelin Harmony tires did. So if it WAS an issue of sidewall flex, I should have a much worse problem with the Dunlop winter tires. But I don't.

There has to be a common denominator here, but I suspect it involves many variables: steering torque sensor and on-center adjust, front alignment, and maybe most importantly, rear alignment. The tolerances may be right on the edge, and the effects become cumulative.

Some folks have also suggested the Prius has a "soft" suspension, which causes the car to wander. Driving on Winnipeg potholes and expansion joints, I beg to differ. The ride can be HARSH if you inflate past the recommended pressures.

OTOH, whenever I drive my parent's 2003 Buick LeSabre Celebration Edition at 110-120 on the Trans Canada, it's floaty soft suspension always feels in perfect control. Due to the potholes the old man likes to get the alignment checked twice a year, but after the initial alignment adjustment, it has held the setting very well.

If any car out there is "under" tired, with a soft and floaty suspension, the LeSabre is THE car for that. It also guzzles gas especially in city traffic. It's a modern Land Barge, and parking it in city traffic sux. But on the highway it has characteristics, like stability, my Prius could only dream of.

Magazine test drives, especially that Australian one, commented on the harsh ride AND wander problems. All I can suggest is that a handful of Prius have all the tolerance factors lined up to create a poor handling car.

More than likely, your Prius will NOT be affected by this problem. However, if it IS affected, good luck.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jsarich\";p=\"40523)</div>

As far as oil changes, I suggest you've already found the perfect place to take your Prius. The young lad sounds positively charming and eager for your business, so why not try that quickie place for at least one oil change?

Maybe he is REALLY impressed with the Hybrid scene in general and would like to spend more time getting to know the Prius. Nothing wrong with that. Take advantage of it!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mdacmeis\";p=\"62336)</div>

Sorry, but you may have a perception issue here. If capacity is claimed to be 3.9L, then as you say, the capacity is 4.228 quarts. If you only put 4 quarts, no overfill.

The fact is, the car is rated at 3.9 quarts, not liters, as you stated in point 1b.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DanMan32\";p=\"62755)</div>

Sorry, but you may have a perception issue here. If capacity is claimed to be 3.9L, then as you say, the capacity is 4.228 quarts. If you only put 4 quarts, no overfill.

The fact is, the car is rated at 3.9 quarts, not liters, as you stated in point 1b.
[/b][/quote]

No perception issue at all. The "Prius Expert" appears to know nothing factual about the vehicle. My point was simple...his math does not compute. My post, on the other hand, was quite lengthy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman\";p=\"62554)</div>

I am sorry you feel this way. While it is true all vehicles will wiggle to some degree (I did not suggest they wouldn't...only stated they would wiggle less with stiffer sidewalled tires), I have plenty of experience with this tire on other vehicles. The handling attributes you state are a complex equation of caster, camber, toe, wheel base, scrub radius, frontal area, side area, weight distribution, and a few others, but include sidewall stiffness. In this particular case, the smaller tire with a smaller contact patch and smaller rolling radius contributes to the wandering problem. The Buick has different sensitivities to these same attributes. I have also proven to date that the Prius has significant wandering sensitivity based on the toe setting. Any cross-car toe difference greatly increases wind sensitivity. I suspect camber is an issue also, but I could not get the tech to equalize the camber setting on both sides when he did the toe (it was within spec although near the limits). However, other vehicles have shown significant sensitivity to this. Not all, but some.

Not everyone will agree, but my previous experience with this tire in various sizes and on various vehicles was not positive, and my Prius experience has done nothing to change my opinion.

 

Again, using that logic, my Dunlop Graspic DS-2 winter tires, which appear to have MUCH softer sidewalls and tread (More give and "wiggle"), should have made my Prius handle much worse at highway speeds.

They did NOT.

If anything, the handling really improved with this mushy, squishy winter tire. I have a bit of steering delay, but lost a lot of the squirrelly handling. I'm tempted to run it all year long, though running the Graspic in summer temps will quickly destroy it.

When I had the Integrity tires replaced with the Michelin Harmony tires, the handling and ride were much improved. I should have had the alignment done before the tires were replaced, to see if that alone would have cured the wander.

There really is something going on with the car, and it's very easy to observe this on glare ice or very slippery slush/snow. When I tried driving under those conditions with the all-season's, the car felt like it wanted to rotate around its center axis.

To be more precise, the back end felt like it was trying to steer the car. There was a very noticeable rhythm, almost like a pendulum, in how the back end behaved under those conditions. At speeds below 65 km/h, it went away.

This is just the sort of behavior that FredWB and Geoff described, though it must be awful in their cars if it happens on dry roads.

According to my Prius tech, my car alignment is set almost exactly in the middle range of the alignment specs. He agrees the Prius is MUCH more sensitive to cross-winds and road crown.

He isn't authorized to conduct "science experiments" on the alignment settings (Caster, camber, toe) and I'm unwilling to participate in such an experiment. The factory has a specification for what should be a good reason, and it seems to work for most.

For the vast majority of Prius cars, there doesn't appear to be a handling problem. For a handful of them, there are significant problems. Mine appears to be right on the edge, most of the time it isn't noticeable.

As you stated, there are probably many factors involved. I really don't feel like applying linear or non-linear Regression Analysis - getting a migraine in the process - just to figure out a problem that Toyota should have an answer for.

 

Wouldn't the wiggle as described be more from the suspension? Now if you pushed on the top of the tire, that would be different.

 

I would think so, the suspension has "flex" as the bushings allow some deflection.

When I first noticed this, at the hobby farm I jacked it up in my garage and looked over the front and rear suspension components. I really pulled and twisted on the suspension components and everything seemed tight.

I know what loose suspension components are like. In high school I had a '77 El Camino. Over bumps the front end went CLANK CLANK, but the handling seemed ok.

I checked and one of the rubber bushings on the upper A arm had disappeared. The rest were rotten and in very poor shape. I spent the weekend pulling everything apart, had new bushings pressed in, and an alignment after I put everything back together.

It seemed to handle tighter after that operation. Too bad the body was so rusted, it was a fun and reliable car for a kid.

 

No, I don't mean unintended play, I am talking about the intended action of the suspension. If you push the top of the car, that would push down the suspension on the opposite side of the car. That's why it leans on turns. Just moving alot in the car can get the car to shake.

 

Yikes that would mean a design problem.

 

I have yet to see a car that doesn't.

 

You are correct. I really tried to keep this simple, but got myself involved in a complex condition. My original attempt was to simply point out that the sidewalls are soft by setting the vehicle in motion such that one could see this. Unfortunately, that has led to an attempt to define the origin of sources involved in creating the motion from rocking the vehicle, as well as a method to quantify the differences between tires and vehicles. That is not easily explained nor does it lead to any conclusion as to which participant is responsible for a particular variable. I should have realized this before I got us on this track. Oh well, I tried.

My comment remains....my experience with these tires during vehicle development has been less than complimentary. They reside on my list of tires I will not purchase.