GM tries to unplug Volt hype

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Mar 26 2007, 08:53 PM) [snapback]412636[/snapback]</div>

That's only 9 months from now.

Prius is older than you realize.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 26 2007, 06:37 PM) [snapback]412664[/snapback]</div>

John I wonder how many of those 1997 Prius are still operating? I know that most of the 2001 are still going strong and that makes them 6 years old but 3 more years is a long time for batterys. I'd love to see hard numbers on the first year or two. I know that the battery modules are different in construction but if say even 60% of them still road worthy, it would mean something. Also the JDM autos are subject to very stringent inspections the reason for a lot of the JDM cars showing up in other parts of the world.

 

the real reason why GM battery technology is three to 5 years away is because they are hand in hand with "big oil".

The battery technology is definately there. From a cost persepective it is relatively "cheeper" for the all car companies to produce gas engine powered cars. With gas in some places still at 2.50 a gallon, the consumer has "gotten use to" paying 2.50 a gallon for gas. It is not hurting them in the wallet as much as we think.

Only when gas gets "too expensive" will GM, Ford, and Chrysler start really producing hybrid or EV vehicles. you will also see all the SUVS off the road parked when gas hits 4.00

Why did I buy the prius?? because it is a great deal for the technology.. Where else can you get all of that stuff in a car for less then 30k

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Mar 26 2007, 09:53 PM) [snapback]412636[/snapback]</div>

I don't know about the RAV4 or EV1 batteries, but the Prius batteries only have enough power to move the Prius at most a mile or 2. And they really aren't that small. You would need 20 times as much battery for a 40 mile or so plug-in hybrid, and that many NiMH batteries would probably fill the entire cargo area of the Prius. The battery pack supposedly cost $3000 today, but lets say you can get it down to $1000 through volume production. That's still $20,000 or so in batteries for the plug-in hybrid sized battery.

And for those who are convinced that GM is lying, evil, in league with the Big Oil, or whatever... Tell me, why doesn't Toyota have a plug-in hybrid on the market today? Right now, they are selling their 4th year of the Gen2 Prius, and they had 4 model years before that. Given how popular the Prius has been, don't you think they would have come up with a plug-in hybrid after 8 model years if it was practical? Why did they say just 3 months ago that Li-ion batteries aren't ready for plug-in hybrids yet? Their plug-in hybrid is supposedly coming in 2009. Why are they waiting two more years? Why not 2008? And why is their plug-in hybrid supposed to only go 9 miles on battery?

Is Toyota corrupt? Are they in league with Big Oil? Are they short sighted? Are they just plain stupid? It has to be one of those, since we all know that the batteries have been available for the past decade. So which is it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Mar 28 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]413644[/snapback]</div>

And how much did the batteries cost? How much space did they take up?

Why hasn't Toyota just taken the RAV4 battery packs and dropped them into a Prius to make a plug-in hybrid? Why are they instead developing new lithium-ion batteries for the plug-in?

Are they stupid? Are they corrupt? Are they in league with Big Oil? Which is it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Mar 28 2007, 02:17 PM) [snapback]413639[/snapback]</div>

The original Prius had a 1.9 kWh battery, but that got cut to 1.3 kWh for the current Prius to save costs (currently about $1,000).

It is widely misunderstood that the Prius battery can only support a 1-2 mile range, and that therefore PHEV battery packs would be very large by comparison.

HOWEVER, people that say this do not understand that Toyota only allow cycling between 40% and 80% of the current battery pack charge at maximum, and this amount is almost never available. Typically, the computer will only let you have about 0.4 kWh of what's really available, in order to baby the pack (about 1.5 miles worth).

The projected lithium-ion for the next Toyota is about 2.9 kWh (not that much more than the 1.9 kWh of the original Prius), with cycling from 90% to 15%. This means 2.5 kWh is available for all-electric PHEV mode, or about 10 miles worth.

2.9 kWh of LiIon would be ( a ) cheaper ( b ) smaller ( c ) lighter and ( d ) able to provide much more EV range than the existing NiMH battery which currently prevented from being utilised for this purpose.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Mar 28 2007, 02:42 PM) [snapback]413650[/snapback]</div>

However, JimN's question was "The first Prius will be some 10 years old by the time GM's batteries are ready. Something wrong with our batteries?".

Toyota must be "babying" the Prius batteries for a reason, yes? If they used the the existing Prius batteries for a 40 mile plug-in, they would still have to "baby" them, yes? Therefore, that would require a lot of expensive NiMH batteries, yes? The fact that the lithium-ion batteries will be cycled between 90% and 15% is irrelevent to the question of "Something wrong with our batteries?"

So back to my main point. If the reason the Volt doesn't exist today and won't exist until at least 2010 is because GM is lying, short-sighted, stupid, or in league with Big Oil (take your pick), then why doesn't Toyota have a car similar to the Volt on the market Today? How come they won't have a plug-in with even a quarter of the range of the Volt until 2009? Why, for that matter, don't they just resurrect the RAV4EV?

Is Toyota corrupt? Are they short-sighted? Are they stupid? Are they in league with Big Oil? It's got to be one of those, because we all know that the technology is all there for a viable, marketable plug-in hybrid, right? So which is it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Mar 28 2007, 12:04 PM) [snapback]413665[/snapback]</div>

Toyota guessed that there would be a market for the Prius 10 years before they started development. Toyota became a leader in hybrids because the immense profit of the Prius proved that there was a market for them. Toyota is raking in so much with their success of the prius, why shoud they build a new car if this one is already so successfull? Why guess for a new market again? Why take the chance?

Dispite all of this, Toyota also would like to build a plug in hybrid, probably just as much as GM does (or maybe not ). There have been numerous articles stating that "Toyota wants to build a PHEV", but Toyota was cautious and didn't promise a plug in by 2010 as gm did with the Volt. Toyota didn't need to change their image because they are considered to be a green company. GM did need to change their image in response to high gas prices, their bad reputation with gas guzzlers, and "Who killed the electric car". Because of this, they scrapped together the Volt in one short year. GM's release of the Volt was just an overdone, shiny announcement of how they would like to build a PHEV someday.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Clay Suttner @ Mar 28 2007, 04:22 PM) [snapback]413770[/snapback]</div>

Sounds quite a bit like their fuel-cell talk.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 28 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]413778[/snapback]</div>

Quite a bit indeed. Someday we will have Fuel cell cars powered by hydrogen made renewably, we hope. But for right now, how about buying our new and improved hummer? its meaner, bigger, has 20'' plasma screens with satilite TV and gets 1 more mpg than it's predicesor!

In regards to the volt though, i realy would be extatic to see them driving around one day. It just seems to good to be true, and therefore i remain sceptical. There was one *right on* statement said by a GM official that "the public will not forgive GM twice" or something like that.

 

the current NIMH problem isn't the batterys it's the Ovonics pattent that is the problem. Capped at 200 volts because of the pattent rights that Ovonics/Chevron owns and activly protects.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Mar 28 2007, 06:12 PM) [snapback]413884[/snapback]</div>

I believe that the patents run out later this year, but I could be wrong.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Clay Suttner @ Mar 28 2007, 06:44 PM) [snapback]413948[/snapback]</div>

Is this what you're talking about? http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?pag...4&archive=1

 

looks like it's 2015. I thought it was 2009. <_<

Would NiMH really work for PHEV designs anyways? What's the volume of the NiMH batteries in the RAV4-EV? Would 40 mi worth of NiMH batteries fit into a Prius PHEV without intruding into the passenger/cargo compartment?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ May 7 2007, 12:54 PM) [snapback]437037[/snapback]</div>

In that blog I read the following:

"li-ions won't be ready for mass-market production vehicles for at least another 5-8 years due to the many safety, reliability, and longevity problems they currently have which still have to be resolved through further development."

But others claim the third gen prius will have li-ion and A123's batteries are already supposedly safe and reliable (but expensive).

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...10/b4024075.htm

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ Mar 23 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]410880[/snapback]</div>

Oh my gosh...we DO agree on something!

Speaking more of GM...what ever happened to the spirit of the *real* Harley Earl (not the lame character in those goofy commercials from a few years back)...the man who had two exact copies of every suit he wore, so he could shower and change at lunch to keep looking fresh all day long...

This, to me, is so very, very...

...and the greatness of the 'Style and Colour Section' at GM, which morphed to became a design juggernaut in the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's under Mitchell, Shianella, Harry Bradley (who also did the original 16 Hot Wheels cars)...my goodness, from the Y-Job on forward through the LeSabre...as well as production marvels like the Corvair (That little problem with underinflated rear tires and a bit too much rear suspension travel notwithstanding)... the '63 Riviera, '66 Toronado (a transverse 455 V8 driving an automatic trans. via a giant chain; who can't love that? This combo was so strong that it ended up in another GM classic, those 6-wheeled motorhomes from the 1970's)...the 1970-70 Camaro, especially the early chrome bumper models...and, yes, even Bill Mitchell's last gasp, the 1980 Cadillac Seville (razor's edge styling and all, and another FWD effort, too!)...GM design and innovation was untouchable and made folks like me, whose Dad worked for Ford, a little bit envious.

And let's not forget powerplants: the smallblock series begun in the 50's, and living on with us even today in some of the pushrod V6's, and the 350 (one of which will probably still be running after armageddon)...and the aluminum small block 265 sold to Land Rover in the 1960's, which powered Range Rovers until very, very recently!

Since then, though, I'm struggling to think of a real GM design notable, either in terms of redefining the market (a la the Chrysler minivans) or knocking us our a**es 'cause the car just plain looks right.

For the record, I'm a longtime domestic car afficinado; the current state of the industry pains me especially. The thing with Henry Ford II wanting to buy Ferrari (in the mid-60's), and being rebuffed, and then deciding that Ford would focus all of its efforts on winning LeMans to teach them a lesson, and then doing it (claims of buying the race aside) is pretty cool to this American girl. It smacks of hubris, but also of will.

I don't know...I honestly can't even remember who's currently leading the design efforts at GM. Most recent design notable I can recall was J Mays at Ford...he's the guy who successfully strip-mined a half century of Ford design and shovelled it all into his ill-conceived "Living Legends" program...yuk.

Currently, I'm not feeling much overall brand identity present in GM styling. Chrylser has it, sort of. Ford, not. Thing is, when I play this little game of seeing just a panel or surface detail of a car and trying to discern the name of the manufacturer, I'm not all that often right with GM products. Chrysler, yes. Mercedes, yes. BMW, yes. Ford, no (is that a three year old Windstar van, or a new Kia?). GM, not usually (Cadillac is the exception for me, just 'cause of all the bling). Toyota, usually (but not always). Mazda is getting better. Volvo, yes. Saab, maybe some, but not as much as before, when it was *really* obvious that that is a Saab.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

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Uh oh...I think I just may have hijacked the thread...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 7 2007, 04:59 PM) [snapback]437176[/snapback]</div>

that was actually an Olds V8 and if memory serves me it was a 215 cu.in. otherwise a nice piece.