Another Case of Dealership Overfilling Oil

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 3 2007, 12:55 PM) [snapback]417071[/snapback]</div>

This question was asked today at the meeting. Toyota's answer was that the marks on the dip stick IS correct.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 5 2007, 12:27 AM) [snapback]418048[/snapback]</div>

Thanks, Scott! Very good to have that confirmed!

 

This has been a great place to learn more about my new car. My engine is 1/4 in above the full mark as delivered from the factory. I saw this drawing of the engine, about half way down the page, and just using guesstimation, 1/4 in over will be roughly to the middle of the oil tube bolt threads. This will not be a problem, the crank throw is way above that. They must ovefill slightly(1/2 pint?) to allow for new engine break in to 5K miles. When I change oil at 2.5K, I will add the 3.9 US qts. as specified and see what happens. In any case there is no harm being done the way I see it.

One thing I am learning is that the engine, in short trip and occasional use, will tend to run cooler than whatever the full temp is supposed to be. I don't have scan gage but it seems to be warming up a lot of the time in my use. Cool isn't good, engines should run at highest thermostat temp to avoid varnish, oil dilution, and sludge. So maybe the choice of oil is more important in Prius than I thought, even though it is a low stress engine.

http://privatenrg.com/#Nomograph

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr.Vanvandenburg @ Apr 6 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]419070[/snapback]</div>

I've found that 1/4" over is just about exactly 8 oz. (1/2 pint) by pumping the excess out of the dip tube. Several of us have found it useful to give the dealer only 3 quarts at oil changes (with filter change). Then bring the level up to full with less than 1/2 quart when you get home. At 3 quarts, the oil level is 1/2 way between full and add on the dip stick. I think the 3.9 quarts is for a completely dry engine and they never get that much out of the sump when they drain it.

I don't think it is necessary to change the oil before Toyota's recommended 5K miles. Cars like Audi don't call for the first oil change until 10K miles and oil analysis results show very little wear products at that.

I use the Scan Gauge and see the engine stay well below where the thermostat opens in the spring, fall, and winter when driving in stop & go traffic (lots of traffic lights here). With the engine shutting off when stopped or when gliding, the engine temperature drops quickly especially with the heater on. It is useful to keep most of the front upper and lower grills blocked in the winter to help things out.

- Tom

 

Thanks, good advice. I would change oil earlier the first time just to flush out break in metal debris. The filter should do it, but they only go so far in micron size. I will change myself, looks pretty easy. I see original filters on ebay for about $4 each. I have liked semi synthetic oils in the old car, Trop Artic 5-30 looks pretty good according to Amsoil comparison tests, but want to see what the dealer wants for "genuine" oil and if it is just regular oil. Good to know suspicions were right as to warm up temps. It does show Prius is not wasting energy with making excess heat.

 

10K service today! I brought in 4 quarts Mobil 1 synthetic with one quart all marked up with "use 1/2 quart only". I told the service rep that I didn't want their bulk oil and not to overfill with all 4 quarts. It seemed to work as I have 1/2 of a quart in the container I had marked.

I did have an issue about alignment! I noticed edges on the outside of the R/F tire. The tech standing next to the service advisor said it was due to low air pressure.... I said, "no it is due to poor alignment, low pressure or high pressure causes different wear patterns". Needless to say upon check the toe was positive one one tire and neg. on the other. They adjusted to pos. .03 each and I am happy. BTW I ran my hand over the rear tire and it too had the rough edge indicating the alignment was bad at the 5K check and they had missed it on the first rotation.

Weeks ago, I asked if anyone at that dealer knew how to install a engine block heater. The service manager got back to me saying Toyota doesn't make an EBH and I would need to drill out a freeze plug to install an aftermarket one!

My biggest concern (Toyota are you listening?) is that service people are suposed to be trained on the cars that are entrusted to them for care. Perhaps ignorance is bliss for the service departments and the average Prius owner, but for those of us readers and participants of PriusChat the ignorance is disturbing.... Maybe some of us should open Prius Only service centers! B)

Lee

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gadgetdad @ Apr 6 2007, 07:32 PM) [snapback]419111[/snapback]</div>

Sounds like that service manager didn't even check on the EBH. Maybe he wants to sell you the drill/install procedure? You should buy the EBH online and take it into him and ask him what it is...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 6 2007, 08:42 PM) [snapback]419112[/snapback]</div>

Better yet, tell him it fell off the car and you want him to put it back on.

- Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 5 2007, 01:27 AM) [snapback]418048[/snapback]</div>

Scott - Thanks for confirming.

Was there any comment or explanation for the discrepancy in (or misinterpretation of) the documentation, which seems to be the cause for the all too common overfilling?

- Looking forward too seeing the write-up on on the discussions that took place.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danatt @ Apr 7 2007, 12:16 AM) [snapback]419180[/snapback]</div>

Dan,
They already started talking about the overfill issue by the time I got there. So I didn't catch everything. The Toyota engineer acknowledged that overfill problem is pretty common, and many of them triggered the check engine light. That's why there's a TSB for this issue. Huntington Toyota, the dealership that hosted the meeting, stated that they have their own oil fill level of 3.75 qt. for the Prius.

I believe the write up of this meeting is in progress. Keep checking http://www.lipog.org for updates! The pictures are up by the way, http://www.lipog.org/photo_gallery4_3.htm

Have a nice weekend all!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 3 2007, 11:05 AM) [snapback]417002[/snapback]</div>

Why not drain the oil, remove the filter, replace the filter with a new one and fill the oil to the specified amount (3.9 qts) and read the dipstick. If it reads "full", it's probably calibrated correctly.
Any oil remaining in the engine after the drain will be negligible.
Am I missing something here?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stepclimb @ Apr 7 2007, 12:22 PM) [snapback]419411[/snapback]</div>

Because that's what is done every time someone gets their oil changed or does it themselves, and it always appears to be over the mark.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stepclimb @ Apr 7 2007, 01:22 PM) [snapback]419411[/snapback]</div>

Yes. "Any oil remaining in the engine after the drain will be negligible." This is apparently not the case. It looks like 4 ounces or more of oil is left in the engine if the 3.9 quart number is correct (for a dry engine). Remember, the same sort of thinking went into the 11.9 gallon full fuel tank number.

4 to 8 ounces in a 7 quart oil change in an Audi is negligible. Our cars really only want about 3.5 quarts on a refill, so 4 ounces is noticeable and 8 ounces can cause problems.

- Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tochatihu @ Mar 25 2007, 09:11 AM) [snapback]411841[/snapback]</div>

I could not reach your link and would like to have a copy of this bulletin. Could you please recheck the link?

Thanks

Susanne

 

I would just like to add my two cents. When I go to the dealer for an oil/filter change, I bring 4 qts of Mobil 1 and a quality oil filter. I caution the service writer to add to the service request, "do not add any additional oil". This seems top help and defuse the issue.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gadgetdad @ Apr 6 2007, 07:32 PM) [snapback]419111[/snapback]</div>

sure there's ignorance, and it's not all excusable, but considering that there are all those other prii out there owned by people who are not members of this board and they STILL WORK, well obviously the car isn't so incredibly sensitive that you need to freak out about all of this stuff.

sometimes i think people get all paranoid over insignificant things.

anyway, some years from now when we've settled down and we can get a business loan, we would like to open up our own shop, with broadly advertised hybrid expertise in addition to regular cars. but keep in mind you're talking about a real niche market for the time being.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 7 2007, 12:32 PM) [snapback]419485[/snapback]</div>

I think you could do well in the niche considering the loyaty of Prius owners to the proper care their cars! We may be small, but we are fierce!

Lee

 

If you want it done right (and cheap), do it yourself.

Changing the oil and filter on a Prius is easy, and requires nothing more than a ratchet wrench with the correct metric socket (14 mm, if I recall correctly) and an oil filter wrench to fit over the end of the filter. There's no need to tilt the front of the car up. You'll need a pan to drain the oil into, a big gas can to hold the old oil, and some paper towels.

Just about any Walmart will take your old oil. (My local Walmart has a car service section, and by state law any establishment that services cars is required to accept used motor oil at no cost).

Harry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 7 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]419485[/snapback]</div>

I agree with your statement, which is why I didn't loose any sleep over driving 11,000 miles (original fill + 1st oil change) with the oil over the fill mark. But then again, I used to drive my previous car ('95 VW Golf) 8000-10,000 miles before I got around to thinking about changing the oil. I didn't loose any sleep over that either. I'm a pretty heavy sleeper, and probably not the best person to go to for oil change advice. Sure, the VW burns some oil now. - But I don't think it burns any more oil than all the other VW Golfs out there with 275k miles on them.

Nonetheless, I'm trying to become a little more responsible now, with this new vehicle. I figure a good place to start is to UNDERSTAND HOW TO READ THE FREAKIN' DIPSTICK. I always thought the "full" mark was the mark you were supposed to keep the oil level "below". But now, I learn that the Toyota service departments prefer to fill the oil above the "full" mark. Hmmm. Very interesting.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 7 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]419485[/snapback]</div>

Yes. Perhaps I have been thinking about this all wrong.

The Prius is a new age kind of vehicle. It is intended to change the way we think about using fossil fuels, impact on the environment, driving habits, etc. Perhaps it is also meant to change the way we think about...
dipsticks. Perhaps we should not be so rigid in our interpretation of the oil level on the dipstick. Perhaps "full" can actually mean "half-full", or even "half-empty". Perhaps our interpretation of the oil level on the dipstick is actually a reflection of our own "attitude". Perhaps we should all "relax", and "become one" with the vehicle (including the extra 1/2 quart of oil), and drive blissfully to Nirvana.

Not.

However minor this might appear, engineering mistakes are serious. Every time you operate a motor vehicle you entrust your own life, and the lives of others to the engineers who developed and produced not only the vehicle, but the procedures that are used to service that vehicle. In this case the impact of this engineering error (and it is clearly an engineering error when adherence to a service procedure produces results that are outside the acceptance criteria of the measurement device used to verify that procedure - ie. the dipstick) are probably just to the perception and confidence in the service procedures. But that should be enough for Toyota to make it a priority to remedy the situation.

All this talk about overfilling the oil is starting to look like a 3-ring circus around here. It should be an embarrassment to Toyota. And they should fix the error ASAP, for that reason alone.

 

First post to PriusChat. Hi everyone.

We just got our 05 a couple weeks ago. Boy was that dealer slow in delivering. No really, bot used from a new mom who "needed" a mini-van. We still have that silly smile on. We're downsizing/upsmarting from '96 Avalon.

Anyway, yesterday had the 30k service done at Toyota of Seattle. (Only have the basic 3/36 warrantee and it has 33k on it now so I figured it would be good to have the dealer do a comprehensive check and diagnostic.)

I asked them why the final invoice says "Quantity: 6" for quarts of 5w30 when it only holds 3.7 qts. She didn't know what it meant so she called the service bay or someone who told her that the "code for oil change and filter" shows 6 qts no matter how much they put in. I'm thinking, OK, my trustometer just dropped another notch for dealer service departments and it was already low.

Without going into the details here, there were a couple other areas that just didn't add up on the confusing and misleading invoice, even though it is three pages long. Even so, Toyota of Seattle's base 30k service price was between 20% and 50% lower than the next two closest Toyota dealers quotes for essentially the same service.

After the work was complete, we met with the mechanic that did the work and he seemed helpful, accomodating, and knowledgable. (One of the 4 mechanics there who are "hybrid certified" or whatever.)

By the way, I showed that 12-20-04 Tech Svc Bulletin about engine oil specs when I checked the car in and pointed to the 3.9qt spec. The service agent said, "yeah we know, it takes 3.7qts."