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GM/DCX/BMW 2-Mode Hybrids

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by jonathanrohr, May 2, 2007.

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  1. jonathanrohr

    jonathanrohr New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 7 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]436925[/snapback]</div>
    Oh! Ok, gotcha.. well.. as usuall, the website dosent give numbers, but if you go to the GMC Yukon Hybrid mini-site it does specifically say it can move electric only at slow speeds. I believe it has 2 65kw electric motors.

    Heres a link: http://www.gmc.com/yukonhybrid/index.jsp

    look under the information for 'first mode' on the main page.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 7 2007, 11:30 AM) [snapback]436925[/snapback]</div>

    I whole-heartedly agree. The funny thing is that while most people on this forum probably see me as a pro-GM troll, most people on the GMInsideNews forum see me as an anti-GM troll! My signature is actually a list of all vehicle catagories, organized in a Toyota vs. GM fashion. And, rightfully, Toyota wins in all catagories except 3; Full-Size SUV, Sports Car (where Toyota dosent even have an entry), and midsize (ok so maybe the Aura is debatable, but I gave it to you guys on the truck!).

    But, when It comes to domestics, I have had only exemplary experiences with my two american cars thus far, and have yet to be particularly blown away by the reliability of my friends 'Japanese' cars. I bought my current vehicle (Pontiac Firebird) at 98k and am today at 140k, and have had only to change the gear on the headlight motor and swap out a window motor, a whopping total of 60$ of repairs in 42k miles. My dads Town&Country has gone from 22k to 100k without anything that weve had to fix, I believe he took it in once for something that got recalled, but nothing has actually 'broken'. My mom's dodge dakota was purchased at 62k and is now at 118k, and all she has had to do is get one of the sensors that tells speed replaced.

    Im not even going to get started about my 340k Taurus. In my family we have 4 American cars, all over 100,000 miles, with minimal problems. Oh, and we ALL beat our EPA MPG ratings too...

    So you see, while I don't have any blind loyalty for GM/Ford/DCX, I have had and seen nothing but exemplary performance from my first hand experiences with their products. I feel the need to share my experiences/opnions when their quality is brought in to question.

    All the while, my friend with a Mazda Mx6 gets 18MPG sqeauling and scretching around town, has replaced his cat 3times, has no A/C, paint is peeling/faded/flaking, headliner falling off, doors sagging to where u have to lift them to shut them (reverse lambo?), both window motors broken, clutch slipping, and 114k miles tells me that Japanese cars are just plain better. OK man, whatever you say.



    Side note: Chrysler would be stupid to waste the two-mode on the Aspen. The Tahoe/Yukon will be a superrior product in every way. However, as many have lamented so far, there is no Hybrid Minivan. Chrysler has arguably the best mini-vans in the market, and the next generation is coming soon (next year I think). They would be much smarter to imploy the 2-mode with a 4cyl engine on the Town&Country/Caravan.
     
    #21 jonathanrohr, May 7, 2007
  2. jonathanrohr

    jonathanrohr New Member

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    you cant delete a post.. dubteeeff mate??
     
    #22 jonathanrohr, May 7, 2007
  3. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ May 6 2007, 06:44 PM) [snapback]436544[/snapback]</div>
    Uh oh...another victim of NIH (not invented here) Syndrome! Are you so afraid that America can't compete that you'd actually suggest that we ISOLATE ourseves from it? What, exactly, are you suggesting?

    Actually, I think a metaphor for what America is right now, is like a car with a powerful and well built engine...but no steering wheel. We're more than smart enough and have more than enough know-how, but something just sort of seems to get between the brains and the execution.

    I **do not** share your cynicism about America, no matter how tongue-in-cheek you're being. Perhaps competing and LOSING once or twice is what it'll take to get us rolling again. That way, if we take ownership of the pain, the pleasure --when it comes-- will be ours as well.

    FYI, I don't own a TV, so I have no idea to which visuals or commercials you are referring.

    ------

    The reality of it is, GM can *not* design a new car, at a competitive price, and bring it to market as quickly as Toyota can. Their cars also tend to depreciate more quickly, which is a good measure of durability and long term value.

    Also, GM, as you'll be the first to admit, is also unable to market as effectively. So, all of this said...why, exactly, do they deserve to remain preeminent on the world automotive scene? What's good for GM is good for America no longer holds true.
     
    #23 Pinto Girl, May 7, 2007
  4. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi All,

    I do not share Rohr's sentiment at all, but people should realize the Prius was invented in the US. It was only corporately enabled in Japan. Of course , that corporate enablement is why we get to drive them today.

    Check out every major subsystem that enables the Prius to do what it does. ALL were invented in the good ol' USA. Hell, the battery was invented in a Detroit Suburb! The electric-torque converting transmission was invented at TRW out there in California. The variable valve timing approach to Atkinson engine was invented by a US engineer in the 1940's. And we all know the CPU was invented in the US. I am not sure where the brushless DC motor was invented, the hybrid (half DC brushless, half induction field) AC synchronous motor used in the second generation Prius (you can feel that 15 to 50 MPH rush right!) was the result of work at Argonne National Labs.

    The US goverment even funded Big Three Prius-like cars development and prototypes. And the big three actually made cars that were one step away from production. But they never went any farther.

    We have most of the best engineers in the world. Until the USA managment and society wakes up and allows them to do the things that will make a company very rich, and rewards the engineers comensurate for the results, the US will fall further and further behind the rest of the world in consumer deployed technology.

    If this means that UAW member has to go to work, or be laid off, well, yea. If this means that a real estate lady has to make $50K a year instead of $500K well, yea. If this means a lawyer has to do divorce cases rather than class action contrived liability suites, well, yea. If this means that a Washington Politician has to be put on a lobby-free funding diet, well, yea. If it means Rick Wagoner has to fall on his sword for the EV-1 fiasco , well, yea!
     
    #24 donee, May 7, 2007
  5. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ May 7 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]437225[/snapback]</div>

    I like all of that except I would agrue that we have SOME of the best engineers in the world. There are quite a few countries that have done things much better than we have and vise versus. :)
     
    #25 F8L, May 7, 2007
  6. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi F8L,

    Ok, yea, a little too arrogant on the wording there. I have modified it.

    And there is no garuntee this will remain the situation. If society does not provide the rewards for the hard work of being a 21 st century engineer in a global situation, well, its just a matter of time before we wont have most of the best engineers in the world.

    The people running companies find its easier to reward themselves and the investors than to competitively reward the engineers.

    One way this might be done would be a commission on each product sold with any patent. This would need to be a national law, so that the inventor would get the commission even if the assignee sells the rights to the patent. That is the inventor would always be an undefilable assignee to the commission, for the length of the patent. Additonally, the inventor should have the right if laid-off by the assignee to use the patent for any work, even if that work is at a competitor to the assignee, if the assignee does not pay the commission for any reason (including choosing to not use the patent in their products), or makes any negative efforts against inventor, proper or improper.

    There has to be a recognition in law that bringing one's self up to the level needed to creatively contribute a unique thing is a life long endevour, and should not be owned by any company an individual inventor is working for at the time. It should only be exclusive to the assignee for the investment made to provide the working enviorment that lead to the invention - with in reasonably moral and continued moral circumstance.

    This law would probably allow the NiMH battery to be used in electric cars now, rather than only in Hybrid cars, due to reported (true?) limitations placed on the battery license by the new owner of the patent rights.
     
    #26 donee, May 7, 2007
  7. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ May 7 2007, 06:52 PM) [snapback]437239[/snapback]</div>
    Ahh no worries. Great response my friend. :)
     
    #27 F8L, May 7, 2007
  8. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ May 7 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]437225[/snapback]</div>
    One very real problem for U.S. industry is that most of the best American engineers go to work for the armaments industry, where they are better paid than in the consumer-products industry. Because the U.S. imposed a no-military constitution on post-war Japan, they have little or no armaments industry, and their engineers have no place to go to work but the consumer-products industry.

    This means that the best Japanese engineers are designing cars and other stuff ordinary people buy, while the best U.S. engineers are designing and building weapons. Thus we have the best weapons in the world, but we cannot compete in the world market for consumer goods.
     
    #28 daniel, May 7, 2007
  9. jonathanrohr

    jonathanrohr New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 7 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]436983[/snapback]</div>
    Absoultely not, in fact I think I even went so far as to state that 'competition is the driving force in our economy'. GM and Fords quality would not have improved so greatly over the last decade if their wasnt a gap to close between them and Toyota/Honda. Furthermore, GM/Ford wouldnt be messing around with lower-profit hybrids if it wasnt for the Toyota/Honda's success in that are.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 7 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]436983[/snapback]</div>
    I dont know about any facts regarding this. Do you have information on development cycles of each company?

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 7 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]436983[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah, you got em there, after three years the Camry will have retained 49% of its value while the Impala will only have 48%. Yet if you actually do the math, since you paid 2,000 dollars more for the camry, you actually lost more CASH on it.

    I know there are less favorable examples, but the number one factor in a cars resale value is rental/fleet sales. If only 40,000 people wanted to buy your car when it was new, yet you made 70,000 and sent the rest to fleet, then those 40,000 people will have to compete with all the fleet cars when they sell them used. Furthermore, GM used to let its cars roll of the lot depreciated by offering such massive discounts. They have done well to ween (sp?) themselves off of both of these.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 7 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]436983[/snapback]</div>
    Tru that.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 7 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]436983[/snapback]</div>
    They don't. They havent REALLY been on top for 20 years. Have you ever actually sat in GM product from the 80's and early 90's? The styling was bland, the different brands had no identity or continuity, the interriors were horrible, and the car, overall, didnt convey a message of quality. Doing a customer wrong is kinda a one shot deal, as Im sure you know. One bad experience and thats it, they tend to go somewhere else. GM's current situation is a result of that happening for over a decade. They were on top, and they definately had the resources to stay there. But when they actually decided to fight, it was too late.

    As to wether GM will ever reclaim the crown, you will probably have to look to China, in two ways. First, is domestic sales, where GM (and specifically buick if you can believe it) are now the market leader. Sales are growing at the rate of 60ish percent each year. Also, when Chinese car companies do decide to exporting vehicles, it will hurt toyota alot in places like Africa and South America.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 7 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]436983[/snapback]</div>
    GM gives alot of americans jobs. Jobs are good, you have to have one if you want money. Therefore, simply logic GM=Jobs for people; Jobs for people=Good for economy; Good for economy=good for america. And thats the word. lol... couldnt help myself.

    But in all seriousness: If you can explain to me how erasing 200,000 jobs (and countless more retiree's benefits) from the US workforce would help/not hurt the United States, please do.
     
    #29 jonathanrohr, May 8, 2007
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