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Figured out why I'm being tailgated so often...

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by brick, May 10, 2007.

  1. brick

    brick Active Member

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    So, this morning I was gently decelerating toward a stop sign with a Ford Ranger right behind me when I noticed something odd: no brake lights reflecting in his chrome. Not good! I had to brake fairly hard for them to show up. After searching the forums it appears that this is not uncommon, and in my opinion needs to be fixed ASAP. Rather than going to the dealer I'm going to see if I can adjust it myself this afternoon.

    From the online service manual it looks pretty simple. The switch is way up toward the top of the pedal assembly and is depressed only when the pedal is at the top of its travel. Once that switch is released the brake lights activate. In my case it would appear that the switch body is screwed down too far. The adjustment simply involves loosening the lock nut and backing the switch out of its threaded hole until a more acceptable activation point is achieved. Torque the lock nut back down and drive safely.

    The interesting part will be seeing if I can reach the thing. If I can't get in there without major disassembly it will be off to the dealer, afterall.
     
  2. timcarlos

    timcarlos Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brick @ May 10 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]439059[/snapback]</div>
    One would think that it would be that simple but does that switch service a purpose more than just a simple brake light switch or does it also have other sensors in it related to regenerative braking? Anyone??

    Tim
     
  3. Betelgeuse

    Betelgeuse Active Member

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    I've definitely noticed this as a problem in our car. Actually, the most noticeable way to test it is to turn on the cruise control and see how far you have to depress the pedal to deactivate that. I don't know if this means that there's more advanced stuff (like regenerative braking) tied into that switch, but it's worth thinking about.

    If you do start poking around up there, let us know of your results and take pictures! If it looks easy enough, I might even try it :)

    EDIT: Actually, given your location, if you fixed it, I might try to bribe you to come and look at mine :)
     
  4. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    This past weekend I had another driver flag me at an intersection to say I didn't have any brake lights. I drive without braking, or at least without mechanical braking, as much as possible, but this was through a hilly downtown area. I checked later and I had lights, so maybe mine needs adjusting too. Brick, I'll be interested in hearing how difficult the adjustment is.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Betelgeuse @ May 10 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]439301[/snapback]</div>
    And I might do the same if you're passing through central VA on your way to SC. ;)
     
  5. brick

    brick Active Member

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    According to the service manual there are two switch assemblies. The big one is the stroke sensor which I presume is responsible for telling the car how hard to brake. (I would be very hesitant to mess with that one.) The smaller one is called the "stop light switch." It is only supposed to contact the pedal when the brakes are fully released which makes sense for something that just tells the computers if the brake pedal has been touched.

    I'm trying to think of reasons that the current adjustment would be intentional and nothing convincing comes to mind. And given how little spacing people leave around here I want to provide them with as much warning as possible, like my last car that activated the brake lights just about immediately.

    I'll be headed out to look at it shortly.
     
  6. Tom6850

    Tom6850 Retired

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    Now that you mention it, I must press a little harder to disengage the cruise. I'll have to check my brake lights also.
     
  7. robincx

    robincx "Fear is the mind killer"

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    Great post, I have notice drivers tailgating me as well. I'm going to the dealer service bay tonight, I'll ask them about adjustments and desired settings.
     
  8. brick

    brick Active Member

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    Done! This is an easy fix for anybody comfortable around wrenches and interior trim panels. It took me the entire evening to figure it out and procure the right tool (I'll explain) but it would probably be a 15 minute job tops if I had to go in there again.

    The first thing I attempted was simply climbing under the dash and looking for a way at the part. It became apparent that this wasn't going to work because there's just waaaaaaay too much stuff under there. Then, per the service manual, I pulled off the lower dash trim (everything from the button blanks down to the hood release...I'll explain that, too). That gave me much better access to the switch. Here's what she looks like (and sorry if that's way too big):

    [attachmentid=7959]

    That barrel-shaped object in the top-center of the image with the white connector is what we're after. As you can probably see it threads onto its bracket and secures via that lock nut between the barrel and the bracket. Now what you can't quite tell from the picture is that this is a really tight workspace. There is absolutely no way as far as I can tell to get at that lock nut with a regular open-end wrench. What does work is a stubby wrench (I think it was a 14mm but it might have been a 13...I was upside down for the wrench selection and wasn't paying close enough attention.) So get that tool first!

    The other end of that switch is the plunger, which rests against a flat portion of the brake pedal arm. The pedal holds the plunger in when your foot is off the brake and releases it when you press the pedal, activating the brake lights and canceling cruise control. The service manual does give a specification for how close the threaded part of the plunger should be to the pedal when it is at the top of its travel: 0.5mm to 2.5mm. My switch, however, was actually serving as the top of the pedal's travel. There was zero clearance, which is in clear violation of Toyota's specs. You can test it out fairly easy while you are under there because you will hear relays clicking if you press the pedal with your hands.

    So now I've told the story of how I spent my first two hours crawling around and buying a set of stubby wrenches, here's how it's done in 15 minutes:

    1)
    Gain access to the switch by removing some dash trim. Remove the air vent trim by the window first by pulling outward and slightly upward on the lower part to release the lower clips. Once those clips are free it's a simple matter to pull it straight out of the dash. Be firm but don't do too much bending! Bending is what breaks clips.

    The main trim panel is removed by first removing the two phillips-head screws that secure the lower edge. One used to be hidden by the air vent trim and the other is visible if you get down there and look for the depression in the general viscinity of the hood release. Next, use your fingers to pull the panel away from the dash and release the clips. They only take a few pounds of force to pop free, so take it easy. You will have several electrical connectors to disconnect: the dash lighting dimmer switch, smart key switch, tire pressure reset switch, and two connectors to the key slot. Finally you have to deal with the hood release. Looking down onto the inside of that panel you can see that the release handle is its own assembly and can be slid out of its slot toward what was the inside of the dash. You just have to press down FIRMLY on the white strip of plastic on top that holds it into its slot. I hurt my fingers doing that one but it worked. But you have to release the cable from the handle in order to free the panel because the handle only goes out one way. The end of the cable is just a little barrel that can be slid out of its mount...you should be able to see that fairly easily. There may even be a way to get the cable out of the handle without removing the handle from the panel but it's harder to see that way and I wasn't about to figure it out never having done this before.

    2)
    Now that you have access to the switch, get under there and have a look at where the end of that threaded barrel is relative to the part of the brake pedal that it buts up against. You may find that the threaded connector touches the pedal itself like mine did, which is incorrect according to Toyota. Press the pedal with your hands and listen for the clicks as the switch does its job. At this point you can pretty much see what's going on.

    Adjustment simply consists of releasing that lock nut, threading the switch upward by rotating it as a whole, and finding the point at which the switch trips its circuits after the pedal has only moved a few millimeters. Again, the end of the threaded part of the switch should be 0.5 to 2.5mm away from the brake pedal when it is at the top of its travel. And be sure to adjust it so that the brake lights not only activate when you press the pedal, but deactivate when you release it! If you go overboard you may wind up with brake lights that are permanently on, which is just as bad or maybe worse than the original problem. Once you get it where you want it, go back in there with your stubby wrench and tighten that lock nut down to the metal bracket to keep the switch from going anywhere. It should be about as snug as you can get it with that short little wrench.

    SIDE NOTE: I did this whole operation without unplugging the electrical connector from the brake light switch. I was able to do this because the wires had a fair amount of free play and I didn't go more than about a full turn. But pay attention, because you don't want to wind those wires up so tight that stress is placed on the connector. Over time the connections could weaken and break. I think the right thing to do would be to disconnect the connector, unwind it, and re-connect it like it was before. But I didn't do that so I don't know what will happen. Procede with caution.

    3)
    Verify your work. You want to see the brake lights activate near the top of the pedal travel and deactivate when the pedal is fully released. My method was to tape a piece of scrap paper to the spoiler so as to reflect the center brake light enough for me to see it from the driver's seat. Press and release the pedal a few times to make sure that you are satisfied with the results.

    4)
    Button her up! Re-attach the hood release cable, re-attach all of the electrical connectors, carefully snap the large trim piece back in place, and don't forget about those two screws on the lower edge. Snap the vent trim back on and you're good to go!

    Or just go to the dealer and make them fix it for you under warranty. ;) Either way I don't recommend driving around with your brake lights out of adjustment. I do recommend that all Prius owners test the lights to see if you need to adjust yours. It's starting to sound like this may be a widespread problem.
     

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  9. robincx

    robincx "Fear is the mind killer"

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    Thanks Brick, this looks easy. The Prius tech was off tonight at West-Herr, my local Toyota dealer. I expect a call from him tomorrow though.
     
  10. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    Awesome, Tim! Thanks so much for the pic and taking the time to write such a detailed description. I know what I'll be doing this weekend!
     
  11. Ichiro

    Ichiro Member

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    Good info! Still no excuse for tailgating, brake lights or no
     
  12. essaunders

    essaunders Member

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    Dredging this old-ish thread up. I noticed, while following my wife in the Prius the other day that the brakelights weren't on as she sat at several redlights. This observeation, combined with my nagging suspicion that I have to hit the brakes a bit hard to disengage the curise made me investigate.
    Thanks to brick for the writeup -- it was waaay more helpful than the local toyota dealer. I'm probably going to try to fix this myself, rather than pay for toyota to first diagnose then fix it. It's just a litte frustrating that I know (based on cruise control cut-out behavior) that this has been an issue since day one, but I'd still have to pay to get it fixed.

    In addition to brick's writeup, can anyone point to additional materials or specs that might be useful in fixing this?
     
  13. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    Re: Figured out why I'm being tailgated so often...

    I'm sure there is something in the Toyota technical manual if you don't mind paying for it and tolerating what I gather is a tedious download process, or perhaps in the Bentley manual.

    I never posted this follow-up, but I made this adjustment within a few days of my last post. No problems since, and it is adjusted so that with the slightest of pedal pressure I can light the lights with no discernible braking effect. I find that of value to alert following drivers of my intent to slow while avoiding the waste of kinetic energy that comes with braking.
     
  14. cnschult

    cnschult Active Member

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    yeah the Prius definitely shows too little stop lamps, but the Tesla lights up the stop lamps as soon as you lift your foot off the gas, that's too much in my opinion.
     
  15. 2009Prius

    2009Prius A Wimpy DIYer

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    Re: Figured out why I'm being tailgated so often...

    Is it necessary to disconnect the 12V battery to do this? Toyota manual always says so but then how would the light switch get power to be checked "live"?
     
  16. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Re: Figured out why I'm being tailgated so often...

    No, there is no need to disconnect the power. That is a standard legal warning. Obviously it is possible to cause damage shorting any live line to ground, so exercise normal care and you will be fine.

    Tom
     
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  17. 2009Prius

    2009Prius A Wimpy DIYer

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    For timid DIYers


    Thanks to this excellent post I finally got my break light switch adjusted to my liking. :)

    If you are an experienced or brave DIYer then you may skip the rest of the post. If you are inexperienced and timid like me then hopefully the following will help.

    It took me quite a number of trials to get the two top claws of the silver vent panel off:
    [​IMG]

    The main obstacle was that because the "design genius" at Toyota had decided to put a large flat extrusion on the right hand side of the dash component behind the claws, there is no access to the claw on the right hand side, and further, if one tries to push down with some thin blade tool there to disengage the claw, one would only make the claw locked tighter:

    [​IMG]

    Once realizing that I was able to carefully pry the top part open. The bottom part pulls straight out. The amount of force needed was almost at the limit of friction, i.e. my fingers almost slipped off the smooth plastic surface trying to pull it off. One of the yellow plastic thingy flew off when the panel was pulled out so clean up around the work area beforehand to make it easier to find the flying away piece(s):

    [​IMG]

    Most of the claws on the large lower panel came off pretty easily, except the one to the left of the steering wheel. I even squeezed my hand through the opening for the vent panel and tried to disengage it with my finger to no avail. After a lot of pushing and pulling in all directions it finally came off. I found it not necessary to disconnect the hood release cable. I just disconnected all the electrical plugs and let the panel lying on the footwell floor. The lock tab is out of sight on this one:

    [​IMG]

    Two plugs here:

    [​IMG]

    and two here:

    [​IMG]

    Once the panel is off we can see the brake light switch with the green receptacle as in the photo:

    [​IMG]

    The lock nut is 14 mm. As luck would have it the lock nut was oriented in such a way that I could use a regular length wrench, not a short stubby wrench as suggested by the OP. And I need it - the nut was on so tight that I almost decided to give up the project halfway. With the regular length wrench, the nut won't move even though the applied force is enough to flex the sheet metal piece that the nut is on, and I didn't want to bend the sheet metal for obvious reasons. Eventually I got the nut moving by playing a "human impact wrench" - giving the nut repetitive, short pulses of torque by hand.

    Once the nut is loose the switch can be rotated around to disconnect the plug. The space is too tight even for my small hands to disconnect the plug. I ended up using two flat blade screw drivers - one to push down the lock tab and the other to pry off the connector:

    [​IMG]

    Here are some photos after adjustment. The switch is retrieved to allow earlier turn on of the brake lights:
    [​IMG]

    The specified 0.5 ~ 2.5 mm gap is where the white plastic rod in the photo. The factory worker didn't bother to set the gap for my car - it had zero gap before the adjustment. I set the gap by observing the functioning of the switch, not the gap size (probably wider than 2.5 mm now):

    [​IMG]

    Have fun! :)