how would you respond to this ?

We have both, and they are two totally different cars. Doing a financial comparison between apples and oranges, especially given the financial intangibles such as overall carbon use and elimination, seems like a somewhat futile act. I would recommend test driving both, look over the creature comforts, evaluate the availability of dealerships/service where you are, and then make a decision on which car appeals to you.

For me, I love my civic because I get to drive a stick shift that saves fuel and is ULEV. My wife loves her Prius because it's super fuel efficient and emissions friendly. I have a moonroof, she has leather and hids. Different cars, different tastes.

 

I'd say that this post belongs in the "Other Cars" forum off the bat, and then I'd say that MANY of us have managed better than what CR obtained in their testing. My wife and I recently took our 2002 Prius to Northeast Vermont from Southeast Connecticut. On the way there we managed 44 miles per gallon, while we were in Vermont we managed 54 mpg, and on the return trip we managed 48 miles per gallon.

If you really want to pick it apart, in my 1999 Dodge Neon R/T (2.0L DOHC, 5-spd trans) with an MSD coil, MSD Super Conductor wires, Bosch Platinum +4 plugs, an Iceman cold air intake, Pacesetter header, high-flow cat, and Magnaflow exhaust system, I averaged about 280-300 miles on about 8.5 gallons of gas in city driving; on the highway I'd get about 330-340 miles for those same 8.5 gallons. That's not too far from some of those numbers that CR came up with for their tests.

What it all boils down to is personal preference. If you want a conventional car, go get a conventional car. No skin off my back, but I think you're missing out on the technological revolution that the hybrid automobile really is.

 

Sounds like your mind is made up enjoy a non hybrid vehicle but I think your numbers on fuel useage per year are wrong.
and savings are more with the prius even if gas goes down which it wont unless we go to war with everyone and WIN odds are good that it wont it will still cost less if gas goes down but to each his own

good luck in your choice

 

Feel free to post all you like. Once in a while you will set someone off, but don't let that stop you.

As for your questions, the mileage figures you posted are on the low side for real Prius drivers. I get better than those figures in cold weather or at highway speeds, and much better with normal driving in the summer. I usually average 55 mpg in the summer. You will find that true for many Prius drivers.

That said, if you are thinking about a Prius solely on fuel savings, I think you will be disappointed. As another poster said previously, comparing a Civic to a Prius is an apples to oranges comparison. I owned a couple of Honda Accords before the Prius, so I have some perspective. Honda makes great cars; Toyota makes great cars. A lot of it is subjective. I like the Prius better than any of the Hondas I have owned, and I like it a lot better than the current crop of Civics. To me, the Civics seem loud and I don't like the way they drive. I especially don't like the interior of the new Civics. Those are subjective factors. As an engineer, if find Toyota's HSD far ahead of anything else. They have done a fantastic job rethinking the whole transmission issue, and traded mechanical complexity for computer software. When properly executed, which it is in this case, I'll take that trade any day.

For me, I'd buy the Prius even if the mileage figures were dead even.

My two cents (more of a nickle),
Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pola @ May 10 2007, 07:11 AM) [snapback]439036[/snapback]</div>

I suspect most of us who own the Prius do so for the car. We don't own it just because of the cost or potential savings. To me the Prius is practically a luxury car that has more room than most sedans and a lot of small station wagons. In addition it has technology that far exceeds all but that in expensive luxury cars (at least that was true when I bought my Prius). Of course, it also gets better mileage and has lower emissions than almost any car, except of course for an electric.

Dave M.

 

Let's take a more realistic figure of $1500 gas savings over 3 years (since I doubt we'll see $6 gas right away, but who knows?)

Are you saying the Civics are $1500 cheaper than a Prius? If they are the same base price (I'm pretty sure it's close), then the gas savings stays right in my pocket. $500 per year is nothing to sneeze at, at least for me.

Now, here's what the Prius has that the Civic doesn't:

Hatchback = more space for stuff. LOTS more space, actually. There are many people on here who have fit large orders from Lowes or Home Depot into the Prius.

Hybrid style. My car stands out on the road, and is noticeable (and I like the look). The Civic looks like every other sedan on the road.

The features you chose to focus on (ground clearance, better ride [totally subjective BTW], visibility) are non-issues for me, and many other drivers. Why would I NOT pay less for gas, get a bigger car, and one that I like the look of?

 

Driving a SUV, suck all your gas money.
Driving a civic non-hybrid, ease up your gas money.
Driving a Prius hybrid, pay a premium and hurt your saving.
Overtime, outputing less polute gas and save the earth, PRICELESS.

B)

 

I tell people if money is the real concern and all you want is a commuter, then the civic is the car to get. However if you need a larger car then you have to get the prius. The Prius is more inn line with an Accord in size and utillity, it is significantly larger in useful space than the civic.

I haven't seen a carbon foot print analysis between the Prius and the Civic, but the Civic isn't bad.

 

i know a mechanic, he recently went from working on Fords to being a diesel mechanic working on heavy equipment for a sand and gravel pit.

he says that todays new cars are so complicated, that ALL can be difficult to repair depending on the type of breakdown and that a Prius or any other hybrid adds only a very small amount of complexity to the mix.

and sure, you can use CR gas mileage reports if you like, but i choose to take MY 3 years of direct experience AND money to tell you that if you wanted to save more money on gas, its probably gonna be easier to do it in a Prius than any other vehicle.

plus, if you dont want a Prius, dont buy one. they are not for everyone. so i guess i have to wonder why you are here. i think you do want one, but needs someone to shoot down your nagging doubts. now whether that can be done is up to you.

 

The Civic is too small, doesn't have the carrying capacity/functionality of the Prius' hatchback, and the Honda's instrument panel isn't well laid out, especially in the hybrid configuration (a tach dead center, in a hybrid, with a CVT...??)

As far as visibility, I disagree that the Civic is better. Its slot-like windshield, combined with its high beltline makes it feel, to me, like I'm sitting in a pit...whereas the Prius (for me) has **excellent** visibility, a more elevated driving position...even towards the rear corners, it isn't particularly bad at all. And the top of the windshield, on the Civic, is REALLY close to my head, which I dislike.

Don't get me started on the Prius' "traction control" though...

 

If a primary concern is finding a backwoods mechanic who can work on a new vehicle, any new vehicle hybrid or not, do not buy a new car. Even the most basic mass produced cars today use computers for engine management and sensors to provide information to the computer. Each new vehicle has quirks and idiosyncracies about itself that only a trained or very experienced mechanic will recognize.

As far as "parts"... Parts are parts... They may have different names or come from different sources or third party manufacturers, but the mechanical process of diagnosing and replacing parts is pretty much the same regardless of vehicle.

In terms of vehicle properties and characteristics, whether it rides flat or rolls a little, or whether you like the blue dash and smaller steering wheel... That is personal preference on your part and it will ultimately be whay most people select one car over another barring some stringent financing requirements or insurance issues.

Personally I would look at the Hybrid Civic as opposed to the standard model and try to make a more apples to apples comparrison to the Prius.

 

Are you trying to sell us, or yourself? If you are so convinced that the Civic is the better deal, go for it. Why do you need to hang around here and submit yourself to ridicule, and discrimination? Prius drivers are very discriminating. That's why we buy them. Its the old argument, Ford vs. Chevy, Honda vs. Prius, Apples vs. Oranges. Pay your money, and take your chances. Its good to have choices, and if you get it wrong, don't come crying to Priuschat.

PS: Why is this in the MODS section? .... Are you trying to modify our thinking?

 

Pola, now factor in expected repairs and maintenance. How often are you going to do a brake job on a Prius compared to other cars? How much are you going to pay for hoses and belts? One reason I bought the Prius is that I expect LESS maintenance. I kept my last car 17 years. I expect the Prius to last that long based on the experience of taxi fleets. How long will the other cars last? What will the insurance costs be for the cars you are considering?

Go to www.greenhybrid.com and see what fuel economy averages real world drivers post. If you really want the most economical car buy an old used car for next to nothing and scrap it when something fails.

No car is perfect. Shop until you find something that suits you best. If it is a Prius, good. If it isn't a Prius, good. None of us have to live with your decision, you do.

Why do people feel a need to calculate a ROI on the Prius? Did you do that before you bought your current car? What's the ROI on a Mustang, Corvette, Elantra, or Beetle? Calculate ROI on investments. Unless you buy a car with a very limited production run or one where demand suddenly exceeds supply you almost certainly will not have a positive ROI.

Whatever you decide I wish you the best.

 

The information your friend gave you is missing a part of the whole equation. Basically it is the same mistake CR made. Yes, Prius cost more than Civic but you will get it back when you sell the car. Add that in also.

If you want a larger, smoother, faster, quieter and more responsive car, go with Prius. There are also some good things that you know by owning (may overlook the importance) a Prius are the cool/convenience of Smart Key, Climate Control and the touch screen LCD screen.

 

Hi Pola,

Lots of responses on here, but they forgot one thing. Brakes on the most standard cars need service every 40 to 50 K miles. More in the city. That is a $500 dollar service, unless you do it yourself. The Prius brakes by electricty down to 7 mph, and the friction brakes last the life of the car.

Alternators and Starters go between 60 and 90 K miles. Again, another service a Prius wont have.

I agree with the other posters on the CR fuel economy stuff. I think they deliberately underate the Prius. Summertime driving here in Chicagoland, which would be similar to maybe 4/5 ths of the year there in Texas, is 55 mpg or better. Although traffic congestion here may be improving that over what you might see, if you do allot of 70 mph cruising.

And resale tends to be based on the life left in the car, and the uncertainty of the ware condition of various parts. The Prius longevity will result in a higher resale than the Civic.

 

Too funny,

The wife & I did the research this last go around, Non Hybrid vs Hybrid.

The initial purchase costs of the non-hybrid were cheaper. however the fuel use & cost I would pay more than I would owning a hybrid expessially the Prius....

I in turn purchased a hycam and Im getting better than the window sticker MPGs....!
Plus more room & comfort for cabin passengers.

I used to average 512 miles per 11 gallons.

Now in the hycam Im averaging 711 per 14 gallons.

(note 60% Hwy driving & 40% Cty driving). B)

Now the Mustang on the other hand, as long as you keep your foot out of the 2ndaries I can avrg 14 mpgs
with burning rubber, 6 mpgs or less... Its only a weekend driver.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ May 10 2007, 12:17 PM) [snapback]439231[/snapback]</div>

It's listed at www.fueleconomy.gov - haven't looked, but pretty sure the Prius treads lighter.

Both are fine vehicles, needing much less repair than anything out of Detroit.

Prius wins, but if I could not have a hybrid, a 5-speed is the next best gas saver.

 

1) Simple fuel cost calculations oversimplify the problem. I was able to reduce my CO2 emissions by a third by trading in my '01 Corolla (5-spd manual, better mileage than any non-hybrid Honda produces in '07 ) for an '05 Prius, but there is no apparent economic benefit to me for that move. Shouldn't I get a little somethin'-somethin' for taking a step to try to hand off a better planet to my daughter?

2) When you buy into new technology, you are putting yourself in a leadership position. How many current Prius owners knew someone who already owned one when they bought their first? I'll wager that is a pretty high number. I give my sister a lot of credit for my recent entry into the cult. When your friends, family and co-workers realize you have this car, and you enjoy driving it and have no unusual problems, it influences their thinking. When they next go to buy a car, they will probably consider a hybrid of some sort, and they will almost certainly consider gas mileage (which equals CO2 emissions and correlates well with the emissions of pollutants) as a factor in their decision. The value of this influence cannot be calculated on the back of an envelope by any driving enthusiast; the results of sociology/economics studies on this topic would probably not definitively answer the question to everyone's satisfaction. By the way, I'm not talking about becoming an outspoken evangelist for hybrids, just the mere fact that you own a Prius (and maybe mention it from time to time) puts you into this leadership role.

3) I can neither "glide" nor "stealth" nor "warp stealth" in a gas car. I can't get the ICE to shut off automatically at stops either. Driving has become much more mentally stimulating than it ever was in a single-mode vehicle. This is a double-edged sword. I enjoy the video game of driving, but I can see how others wouldn't. The benefit of me being able to drive as a sport is difficult to put a price tag on. Suppose you play golf (and ride the electric cart (mmmm, EV) so there is little exercise benefit), how much is that worth? Club dues and/or green fees, equipment, funny pants, etc. -- it all adds up. So, if you roughly spend the same amount of time driving actively as you do playing a weekly 18-hole round, would the golf costs be roughly equal to your benefit from driving the hybrid vehicle?

The bottom line is: if you are going to live in a bubble (with automagically cleaned air), not have anyone who knows you know what you drive and simply want to get from point A to point B with no thinking required, you are probably going to be happier with a fuel-efficient gas car. However, if you want to be in the vanguard on the march toward energy and environmental security, you'd put your money where you mouth is and buy a Prius today (and wait for the EV's to arrive.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ May 10 2007, 06:09 PM) [snapback]439589[/snapback]</div>

Very wise reasoning I would say. In some ways, a car is like a boat. A boat is a hole in the water that you pour money into. Calculating a Return On Investment seems easier when I save a buck at the pump by driving a Prius, and then I invest that buck by purchasing stock in energy companies. I have said many times I also bought the Prius for the simple fact that I drive 3,000 miles a month in Los Angeles. Add to that the carpool stickers and you have a commuter vehicle with priviledges that also saves gas and helps you maximize your investment potentials.

Good luck.....