Conservative = "me"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 8 2007, 05:56 PM) [snapback]458311[/snapback]</div>

You and I are not talking about the same things. I have never told anyone they were going to hell (though I would have liked to tell a number of people TO GO to hell; haven't done that either). I don't know who is going to hell. God is the judge. Not me.

So, if you are an atheist, whatever is in store for you is between you and God. Ideally, I will live such a life that you will look at me and say, "I want what he/she's got. That peace and joy, etc." And then you will ask me, and I will share my faith story. And you will become interested, and seek further. Ideally. My life should be my witness.

Now, if you are an atheist, and you get bent out of shape because the school choir sings a Christmas carol, I am going to ask you to get over it. You don't believe in Jesus; that's your right. Unless you are also protesting the Frosty the Snowman song because he doesn't exist, I believe that your objection to my Christmas carol is a form of discrimination and an aggravating waste of all our time.

Now, my example about gay marriage was simply an example of a way that liberals want the rules changed. I take it that you agree with me -- that legalizing gay marriage is an example of the way that liberals want the rules to be changed. So we're together here.

As far as getting me to explain to you why gay marriage should or should not be allowed, you'll have to look elsewhere. All I know is that I have gay friends who very clearly are gay because they were born that way. I also know that God loves them, and that he, not I, is their judge.

But I can tell you how gay marriage is a threat: conservative parents want their children to grow up to marry a good person of the opposite sex. It is probably even instinctive to want to have your genes carried on (note the number of species where the male kills the offspring of his mate's previous mate). (Byproduct of evolution?) Anyway. Good parents set boundaries and give guidance (which may or may not be accepted by the child) for all things, from personal responsibility to alcohol use to how you treat others. Included in this is guidance on whom you should marry.

Dick Cheney loves and accepts his gay daughter. I do not know what his hope was for his daughter when she was born, but I do know that most conservatives hope their children turn out to be heterosexual. And I hope that if their children are gay, that they will show Dick Cheney's love and compassion.

So, gay marriage is a threat because if it is too accepted it becomes an easy option for children.

I will not tell you that is right. I will not tell you that is wrong. I do pray that God gives wisdom and guidance to the churches, believers, non-believers and law-makers who are struggling with this difficult and divisive issue.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jun 8 2007, 06:32 PM) [snapback]458412[/snapback]</div>

Being gay is NOT a choice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jun 8 2007, 09:37 PM) [snapback]458416[/snapback]</div>

Being gay is not a choice. I agree.

Heterosexuals who experiment in same-sex encounters are choosing to do so. They are not choosing to be gay. They are choosing to behave as if they are.

Is heterosexuality a choice?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jun 8 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]458412[/snapback]</div>

Except, of course, for the fact that it isn't an option, as you pointed out earlier in your post. Anyone who still believes it to be an option, choice or that you can be "turned" that way, is simply ignorant. Acceptance of this fact will not produce more gay people, but it might make the world a better place for many of them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jun 8 2007, 05:44 PM) [snapback]458306[/snapback]</div>

Honestly, I've come to grips with all of what you've said there. No, I'm not special; no, I'm no one unique for being a submariner who patrols the seas. There's thousands of us in the Navy that serve aboard this type of platform.

All that said, though, what I read was a post that really seemed to disregard what sacrifices have been made. And I was also beginning to get the impression that you were against the freedom that we have here in the country. Obviously you're not against them the way it had seemed.

I'll leave it dead now. I'm tired of being a troll. It takes too much work to begin with.

And in the future, I'll keep my opinions to myself. I'm sorry that voicing them hurt you or anyone else here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ozyran @ Jun 8 2007, 10:13 PM) [snapback]458440[/snapback]</div>

You are special and unique for being a submariner. I would scream like Paris Hilton if somebody stuffed me in one of those! Thank you for doing what to me is unthinkable.

And while I am not up to speed on your transgression RE: Pinto Girl, you two seemed to have worked it out in a most amicable and admirable way. It would be a loss if you quit posting your thoughts. I for one would like to hear more of what you think.

And PInto Girl, you said something about feeling bad about startign this thread. You are forgiven (Actually, some of this has been very interesting). However, your penance is that you have to vote Republican for the next ten years.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jun 8 2007, 08:32 PM) [snapback]458412[/snapback]</div>

Good for you! (no sarcasm, really). I have no problem with Christians who LIVE their ideals, rather than simply preach them. Unfortunately, there are many I have met of the other stripe...

My life is also a witness to my beliefs. I believe in the inherent goodness of humanity, the power of peace, love, forgiveness, and joy, and that people spend too much time worrying about what they believe instead of how they live. I know buddhists, hindus, muslims, jews, christians, and atheists who are ALL loving, caring human beings. I also have heard of people from all faiths who are condemning of others, angry, selfish, and dangerous.

You don't know how appropriate this example is. I happen to be a public school music teacher , and have to choose music for Christmas. Because of this, I get lots of feedback. But, see, I get maybe one person every five years or so asking to cut out the religious music. On the other hand, I get maybe one or two people every year asking why we don't do MORE religious music. Never mind the fact that it is the ONLY religion we use music from at all, and we have muslims and hindus in our schools (and BTW, they never complain about Christmas music).

Here's my position on the issue.
1. Music is about culture, community, and spirit. Take away Christian music and there's not enough left, and much of it is junk (not that there's not junk in the Christian music too!) And the choral experience itself is historically inextricably tied to Christianity.
2. There ARE good non-Christian songs, and these should be explored as much as possible. My job is to choose quality literature that teaches something to the students, without proselytizing. If they want more Christian music, they can attend church.
3. The argument that Christmas carols are somehow your "right" doesn't fly with me, except as a CULTURAL celebration, not a religious one. Again, if you want to sing more carols, go to church. That's what it's there for.

So I choose a mix of both sacred and secular at every concert.

I don't think it was you I was responding to about gay marriage, but thanks for commenting back. I agree with you on all but this particular line. Not that you are wrong about the conservative view, but that the view in itself is wrong. But others have already covered this.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jun 8 2007, 11:05 PM) [snapback]458471[/snapback]</div>

I suspect that Paris Hilton would like submarines. They are long, hard, and filled with seamen.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 9 2007, 12:10 AM) [snapback]458508[/snapback]</div>

I don't envy your job -- trying to find music that teaches students, sounds good to parents and pleases everyone's point of view.

But I laughed, too, at your comments about if I want to sing more carols, go to church. In my tradition (reformed Presbyterian, which is actually redundant), Christmas Carols aren't sung except at Christmas. We're talking when the last candle (or possibly next to last candle) on the Advent wreath is lit. So every year the music director and pastor have to put up with complaints about Why Aren't We Singing Christmas Carols? starting right after Thanksgiving.

And the answer is, because it isn't Christmas yet. It's Advent, so we sing advent songs, which tend to be ancient and contemplative (and beautiful, for the most part, but they are not Christmas carols).

So many music directors and pastors at Christian churches are dealing with the same problem YOU are!

There is so much good Christmas music. There isn't time to play it all!

I think I would have less of a problem with a preponderance of secular music at the "winter" concert if I hadn't been around long enough to remember that those winter concerts were originally Christmas concerts. We don't seem to call things what they are anymore. A.D. is now C.E.

I was standing by a reprint of the Declaration of Indendence today and right at my eye level were the words, "under the protection of Divine Providence." I found this thought provoking, and will keep my thoughts to myself for now.

One last thing: I think it would be much easier for middle America (and conservatives) to accept gays if the gays they saw (when they knew they were seeing gays) weren't the flamboyant examples wearing peacock feathers and little else and kissing each other on the mouth in some parade probably in CAlifornia.... Middle America and conservatives don't like to see heterosexuals behaving like that, so the TV footage nearly pops their eyes out.

Practically speaking, act like other people in order to be treated like other people. (Note: You have every right to wear every peacock feather you can afford. Just don't be surprised if people notice, and that not everyone's taste is peacock feathers.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jun 9 2007, 08:28 PM) [snapback]458924[/snapback]</div>

Believe it or not, we're coming very close to eye-to-eye on things here (don't tell my liberal friends!)

I grew up in a Christian church, and have also directed church choirs, so I remember the problem you mentioned about Advent vs. Christmas. Guess its time for churches to do more "caroling", both in and out of the service. I remember having fun singing carols door-to-door to the shut-ins or other members. I also have seen churches do great carol services, either on Christmas Eve or that last Sunday in Advent (could be a later evening service then too).

Concerning things like CE vs. AD, Winter Concert vs. Christmas Concert: I have mixed feelings because I believe in a balance between respecting tradition and respecting freedom/differences. We always call our school concerts "Winter", because then it's not blatantly Christian, and, frankly, because the other concert is the "Spring" concert. CE isn't my favorite change in language, but remember that Christians are notorious re-worders as well! Just look in any modern hymnal, then try to sing a song you know from childhood. The words rarely match up perfectly. And AD, while traditional (and I value that), is not set in stone, except for some Christians. CE isn't wrong, just more generic for detailing all history, rather than set as a reminder of one historical event.

You mentioned the Declaration of Independence. Founding Fathers arguments are always interesting to me. To be sure, most of them were members of a Christian denomination. But Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington were all Deists, which means they rejected supernatural phenomenon, holy books, and divine revelation, and believed that the natural order and human reason revealed the existence of God. To many modern Christians, these ideas would be considered un-Christian, and yet we always have this notion that we were founded as a "Christian" nation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 10 2007, 12:36 AM) [snapback]459009[/snapback]</div>

I can't sing, but I like to. Since God gave me my voice, I figure it's okay to belt out the hymns I like and perhaps he'll at least appreciate the spirit I put into them. I guess you'd say I sing lustily and loudly. (Though not compassionately for those around me.)

But you are right. The words have changed (and sometimes the tunes, too!). I'm having so much fun singing that I'm not watching the music.

Can you imagine anything worse for my teenage children than having a parent not only singing loudly in church, but singing the wrong words to the wrong tune? Where EVERYBODY can hear?

This is probably counted as child abuse somewhere.

I do think re-wording is a good thing. It shows a willingness to change. And, in the case of recent bible translations, shows a willingness to make corrections to the canon when older, more accurate ancient manuscripts are found.

Happy singing!