When smart people make bad decisions

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Barry123 @ Jun 17 2007, 08:29 PM) [snapback]463750[/snapback]</div>

Sorry to ask the obvious, but have you checked to see if you are still within the cancellation period, or even if you can get a prorated refund? If you can cancel it, then that extra $27 each month can go toward paying off your car early.

The dealer quoted me over $2000 for the pre paid maintenance. I almost bought it, but ended up having them redraw the contract the next day. Later, I called for the regular prices and figured out that the over $2000 investment covered about $545 worth of services. What a rip off.

One of my friends told me it might be worth it to people who often forget their service and wanted to be reminded. My reply was that I would give them a reminder service for less than the extra $1500.

 

For the $27.00 a month you are paying, you could change your oil yourself with Mobil 1 and a new filter every month!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Jun 18 2007, 02:17 AM) [snapback]463839[/snapback]</div>

This is why most Dealers put that annoying "see-thru, self-stick, oil change reminder sticker" in the upper left corner of your windshield....

Duhhhhhhhh..... let me see, my car has 10,672 miles on it and today is June 18th..... that little sticker says next oil change (or service) at 10,000 miles / May 30th....... Hmmmmm, do ya' think it's due yet ????

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Jun 18 2007, 02:17 AM) [snapback]463839[/snapback]</div>

There is already a reminder service built right into the Prius that lights every 5,000 miles to let you know that service is needed...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jun 18 2007, 08:46 AM) [snapback]463899[/snapback]</div>

With only 1,200 miles on our new Prius, we haven't gotten into that yet, but now that I think about it both the Honda and Acura had 'em, and as you pointed out so does the Prius. Nice "reminder" and very easy to reset by yourself once the task is performed by you, if you chose to do-it-yourself.
I even have (you won't believe this) an hour meter, maintenance reminder, by SenDEC on my JD 21" walk-behind self-propelled lawn mower. When engine is off it tells hours of engine use and while engine is running it gives engine RPM. Such excitement to see the R's drop when I hit a patch of tall, tough grass (just kiddin' ya' know), but it also blinks a few hours before an oil change (set intervals) is due and a solid "CHANGE OIL" is displayed when past time. Neat little gadget for logging actual "time" (hours) when any maintenance is performed. They make many different meters for many applictions. Mine get's it's inductance from small wire wrapped around spark plug boot.

 

To me, the whole idea of fixed interval oil changes is a bit outdated to begin with. General Motors, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have been installing monitors on their dashboards that light up to indicate when its time to change oil. These systems analyze the engine's operational data including temperature, revolutions, speed, to calculate the rate of engine oil degradation and determine when an oil is nearing the end of its life. At this point a message on the dashboard signals that it is time to change oil. With the Prius being such a technology-laden vehicle, I am really surprised that Toyota didn't implement a similar system, especially given that the ICE is not running 100% of the time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jun 18 2007, 08:21 AM) [snapback]463914[/snapback]</div>

My Intrigue has that idiot light. If I waited for that the crankcase would be down some 2.5 quarts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Jun 18 2007, 10:46 PM) [snapback]464439[/snapback]</div>

Uhh, flexible service lights and low oil lights are two different things...

 

Oh Yeah, my Honda Civic Hybrid had the Oil Minder that judged the oils condition based on engine revolustions and such. It was nice, but still glad I traded it for my Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jun 18 2007, 08:21 AM) [snapback]463914[/snapback]</div>

Ask any BMW owners who cherish their vehicles. No one follow the maintanence indicators!
If you do, the first oil change would come at about 12K-15K miles. Why would someone do that
to your beloved vehicles? Even with synthetic oil (which BMW recommend), it seems long.

I agree that flexible interval is a good idea. However, BMW is a bad example in my opinion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ceric @ Jun 18 2007, 11:15 PM) [snapback]464517[/snapback]</div>

I too wonder about the conditions on which BMW's maintenance lights get triggered. Considering BMW gives "free" maintenance during the warranty period and many buyers just lease them for 3-4 years, it'd be in their best interest to keep their costs down and to ensure that the car only lasts long enough till the lease is up.

I wouldn't want to wait 12K+ miles to change my oil either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ceric @ Jun 19 2007, 02:15 AM) [snapback]464517[/snapback]</div>

As long as you are using a high quality synthetic and a good filter, service intervals of over 10K miles are really nothing to worry about. Just take a look at a used oil analysis and you will see that most synthetics still have enough TBN left after 10K miles to do their job. In fact, 10K+ service intervals are commonplace in Europe. Only here in the US have we become brainwashed by the 3K service mantra propogated by the oil change industry.

My Mercedes has a Flexible Service System (FSS) and it routinely suggests an oil change around 10K miles. Mercedes discovered that the breakdown in oil is determined by such factors as driving habits (frequent short trips vs. long trips), driving speed and failure to replenish low oil levels. Therefore, the FSS monitors time between oil changes, vehicle speed, coolant temperature, load signal, engine rpm, engine oil temperature and engine oil level. It uses this information to determine the remaining time and mileage before the next oil change and it displays the information in the vehicle’s instrument cluster.

Additionally, Mercedes discovered that oil degradation is correlated directly with its ability to conduct electric current. So, they fitted their V-6 and V-8 engines with a digital oil quality dielectric sensor, that is mounted above the oil pan along with an analog oil level sensor. This sensor measures changes in capacitance, which effectively is a proxy for the amount and type of contaminants and oil degradation products present in the oil. An increase in dielectric constant (less resistance to electrical flow) indicates oil contamination and degradation.

 

We need a side thing here on prius chat where I can open my garage up on saturdays and change oil for people who don't want to do it. Since I own a prius, I'm an expert and will save you 50% and only charge $50 for the whole job. For another $300, I'll rotate the tires.

:lol:

I've done 10 oil changes on my own in the garage. I'm done in about 15 minutes which is less than it would take me to drive to my dealer so I could spend 3 hours sitting in their waiting room. When I'm done changing the oil, I never point out to myself all the other maintenance I should be doing to 'protect my investment'.

It's just a car, and not that great of one... Drive it, change the oil and drive it some more. It's going to go crappy in about 5 years and 150,000 miles whether you spend a mint on detailed maintenance or if you just change oil, gas it up and drive it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jun 19 2007, 10:57 AM) [snapback]464701[/snapback]</div>

Great! Where do you live and when should I come over??

 

My name is Al, I too am an Idiot. I purchased the "Maintenance Package" from the dealer. I feel like I should join some program for the mentally defficient when it comes to buying a car. I was so excited about actually finding one on the lot I would have signed almost anything to drive it home that night. Imagine my dissapointment when my book of oil change coupons showed up. I should have marched right in and demanded a refund, but I had already used one of the services before the book even arrived. I will know better next time, if only we can save one person from this mistake, this will be worth it...

Al...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jun 19 2007, 11:57 AM) [snapback]464701[/snapback]</div>

But in all seriousness, usually when a "concerened owner" of a vehicle does their own oil/filter/drain plug gasket change, YOU KNOW that the oil filter was "primed with a little oil" before it was screwed on, the oil filter gasket was lightly lubed and that filter was torqued (by hand) to the correct tightness. You also changed the oil drain plug gasket with a new one and torqued that drain plug bolt down to correct tightness, not too much as to strip it and not to little as to have it eventually loosen up and fall out. You used a funnel and gently poured in the exact brand and viscosity oil you want, taking care not to drip anything on the nice, clean engine. You topped it off CORRECTLY with oil and then re-checked the oil level on the dipstick after running the engine for a few minutes and letting it sit for a few. You also checked for any leaks while going under the vehicle one more time. An oil/filter/drain plug gasket change done with PRIDE !! So now you have the unpleasant task of pouring the dirty, used oil from the drain pan into a container, maybe an old Chlorox or Kitty Litter container (one gallon) and wiping out the drain pan, but big deal, a quarter of a roll of paper towels, if that and the next time you happen to drive by a place that accepts used oil (we have Advanced Auto.) you drop off the container of used oil while you buy brand new oil for the next change. So some things in life CAN be simple (and inexpen$ive), right ??
I've been changin' my own oil since I was 16 years old...... wouldn't trust any "lube monkey" to touch my vehicle, no friggin' way !!

 

The guy changing oil at the toyota dealer is not the expert auto debugger repairer diagnostic level 84532 seasoned 29 years mechanic. It's the kid who needed a summer job, or the new guy out of votech. These guys should be able to change the oil and get it right too... I'm not discounting that, just.... They're probably not diggin the job and are mostly thinking about which girls they'll be chasing later that night or this weekend.

You get to jiffy lube and I'm sure those folks are nice people, let's have a bbq... but let's face it, they're not changing oil in a hot bay for minimum wage because they have a deep love for it.

In either case, you 99.9% of the time are not getting someone who cares a lot about your car.

When I change my oil, I take care, but I'm not babying it and wiping it down with a diaper. I drop the oil, swap the filter, put the plug back, tighten the plug and the filter to "That seems about right", dump in 3.5 quarts, put the filler cap on and go... It's no huge lovefest either.... but it's done right, done cheap and mostly, it's done.

I never wonder if they 'actually changed the filter', or if they were responsible for jerking some wire that's the cause of my next trip in for expensive service. I know I changed the filter, and if there's a wire jerked causing problems, nobody at jiffy lube did it....

Back in about 1987, I was with a friend of mine in town when he said.. Let's go get the oil changed. First we went to sears and swapped out the air filter (picked it up, put it in before heading over to the jube joint).

We waited around a while, watching the car getting next in line and now it's our turn. About 5 minutes later, the guy came walking up with a ratty old air filter telling us it needed changed, did we want him to put in a new one?

We were both so befuttled by it, we both answered... No.. we're the ones with the copper colored car right there, you got the wrong guys.. he said.. no.. I got the right guys, this is your air filter... Which is when it hit us what was going on... we told him we just got done putting a new air filter in less than an hour ago over at sears, was he trying to rip us off? Then, all of the sudden we started getting the old misunderstanding, the other guy said the wrong thing, he'd straighten it all out, sorry for the confusion bit...

I'll change my own at home... thanks....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ Jun 20 2007, 09:42 AM) [snapback]465275[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I agree that you are totally serious about your oil changes. I used to be an auto mechanic (1980), but I obviously need to renew my training.

I had never heard of priming an oil filter with oil before installing it. Is that to prevent crushing of the filter material from the sudden impact of oil hitting the dry material under pressure from the oil pump? Come to think of it, I guess it would get oil to your valves and such faster the first time you turn it over after the oil change. OK, I will do this next time.

What is the proper torque for the oil filter? Just kidding, I know you mean "two hand tight" not that I have ever been able to get two hands in the tight position. Another rule of thumb they used to teach was one turn past where the gasket makes contact. I always wince when I see those sumer job kids putting the filter on with an air impact wrench.

Does anybody know why most cars make sure the filter is positioned directly over a fram member, exhust manifold when posible?

I will admit, I don't change my oil plug gasket every time. You shouldn't need to if you are not overtightening the plug. It is not correct to tighten it until it stips and then back off two turns. When the motor mounts rip apart, you are using too much torque. I usually use my hand in the middle of the wrench to get it tight enough. If it starts dripping, I will replace the gasket.

But yes, it is much easier to change your own oil than to drive to a dealer and wait for minimum one hour while they do it for $54.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Jun 21 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]465765[/snapback]</div>

I usually half-fill the oil filter with fresh oil, and then sort of rotate it in my hand to distribute the oil into the entire paper element of the filter. This assures no "dry sump" or "air bubble effect" where an engine would get no oil for a few seconds initially after startup on that new filter change.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Jun 21 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]465765[/snapback]</div>

Actually it's usually 3/4 turn (sometimes 7/8) hand tighten after (lubed) rubber oil filter gasket makes firm contact. Honda used to number their oil filters 1 through 8, the idea was to note which number you see (using some reference point by eye) and then subtract one number, hand tighten to that number. Obviously this resulted in 7/8 of a full turn by hand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Jun 21 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]465765[/snapback]</div>

I could tell you stories about our "stoned high school kid" lube-boy that they used in the Connecticut Chrysler Dealership I worked at years ago. He would either strip the drain plug or leave it loose.... one extreme or another. We had a big box of oversize, self thread-cutting drain plugs, especially just for his mistakes. It was also very sad to see high end vehicles come in like BMW's, Mercedes, Vette's, etc. and he treated then like sh*t !! Dripped oil all over exhaust pipes when draining, never wiped it off, actually on several occasions DROPPED the (dry, of course) new oil filter on the cement floor and then just picked it up (dented) and used it. Best part was the filling process, dripped all over nice, clean, spotless engines... what a friggin' mess, oh and I guess I forgot to mention, the stingy old man (owner) had ONLY 10W-30 bulk oil. Used it even in engines that spec.'ed 5W-20, like Ford and Honda. Watching the "stoned lube monkey" was like watching Cheech & Chong, only without Chong !!
So WHY do I do my OWN oil changes ????????????

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Jun 21 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]465765[/snapback]</div>

While many do, the Prius is one that does not. My Acura MDX was a pleasure to change filter. The '04 CR-C EX I currently have is one of those nightmares you speak of, and if you may remember when it first came out in early 2004 there were the rash of engine FIRES.... remember that ?? Turns out "lube monkeys" left the OLD oil filter gasket on the filter boss, and then put the new filter right over this.... duhhhhhh !! The "fix" was that Honda put "crimps" in the oil filter to keep the rubber ring (gasket) from coming off.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Jun 21 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]465765[/snapback]</div>

Most oil drain plug gaskets, especially Toyota and Honda, are CRUSH GASKETS, much as the gaskets spark plugs use. These drain plug gaskets should be replaced EVERY time that drain plug is removed and replaced, EVERY time !!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Jun 21 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]465765[/snapback]</div>

It's not a money thing with ME, and believe me I don't cherish crawling under a hot vehicle and getting warm oil dripping down my arms, but it's the PRIDE in knowing that it was done right to MY specs. !!